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Cameron out of touch


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#41 ckn

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 11:33 AM

Indeed I had remembered the results of the last election which led to a minority SNP government.

There was a TV interview a few years ago with Annabel Goldie, former leader of the Scottish Conservatives in the Scottish Parliament where she was very proud of the way the Scottish Parliament worked.  As 4th party in terms of members she was still able to get through some key policies because the parties all worked together to create a consensus of governance.  In return for getting some of their more sensible policies implemented, they agreed in principle to not unreasonably oppose sensible things put forward by the governing party.  She also highlighted a few policies where the Tories had suggested an amendment to SNP bills and the bills were amended because everyone else accepted them as sensible.  Even now as a majority of SNP the smaller parties still get things through regularly.

 

There's no way that would work in the UK Parliament, if you're not in the governing party (or parties) then you get nothing beyond the ability to rant in public in the House.  If Cameron stood up today and said it was Tuesday afternoon, you'd probably get at least one senior MP on the other side (or even his own) putting forward an amendment to recognise that it's Wednesday morning in some parts of the world.


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#42 ckn

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 11:43 AM

Do you believe Cameron has the bottle or the authority to do the latter? To genuinely attempt to modernise his party, instead of just talking about it? I don't. He is the one who stoked the flames over Europe by promising a referendum in the first place, to try and appease the Euroloons in his party. By doing that he has just made them stronger and whatever he concedes to them, they will never be satisfied. He has allowed Dorries back into the fold so she can repeatedly stab him in the front instead of expelling her from the party. He is the one who staked his Tory modernisation project on equal marriage and then didn't have the courage to speak in its favour during the debate in Parliament yesterday. Pathetic example of leadership. Kinnock was a giant in comparison.

Who in their right mind would want the job?  The most capable MP the Tories have is Hague but he's northern and bald so gets a hard time from even the Tory friendly press.  The other relatively good Tory MPs get massive media spinning from their own side to trash their credibility before they can become a threat.  Who needs an opposition to trash you when your own side will do it so effectively.

 

For some unknown reason in the English based press, the "all fur coat and no knickers" rabble rousers like Farage get a relatively easy ride of having nothing of substance behind them and a glass jaw when criticism is thrown at them.  They can throw mud very effectively at the Tories from behind that protection.


Arguing with the forum trolls is like playing chess with a pigeon.  No matter how good you are, the bird will **** on the board and strut around like it won anyway


#43 JohnM

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 12:19 PM

Do you believe Cameron has the bottle or the authority to do the latter? To genuinely attempt to modernise his party, instead of just talking about it? I don't. He is the one who stoked the flames over Europe by promising a referendum in the first place, to try and appease the Euroloons in his party. By doing that he has just made them stronger and whatever he concedes to them, they will never be satisfied. He has allowed Dorries back into the fold so she can repeatedly stab him in the front instead of expelling her from the party. He is the one who staked his Tory modernisation project on equal marriage and then didn't have the courage to speak in its favour during the debate in Parliament yesterday. Pathetic example of leadership. Kinnock was a giant in comparison.

no, I don't... otherwise he'd have done it already.  Maybe it'll take Boris.



#44 Steve May

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 01:56 PM

no, I don't... otherwise he'd have done it already.  Maybe it'll take Boris.

 

If Boris Johnson is the answer, the question was wrong.   Behind that buffoon-like image is a buffoon.


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#45 Shadow

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 01:59 PM

If Boris Johnson is the answer, the question was wrong.   Behind that buffoon-like image is a buffoon.

 

That's where you're wrong. Behind that affable buffoon like image is an extremely clever and razor sharp ambitious man.


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#46 Wolford6

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 02:08 PM

For the first time, Shadow and I agree on something.


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#47 Wolford6

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 03:45 PM

Actually, the more i think about it, it was inevitable that, eventually, Shadow would come round to my way of thinking.

 

It would save a lot of time if all the rest of you did the same.

 

 

;) ;)  :biggrin:


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#48 Shadow

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 03:56 PM

Actually, the more i think about it, it was inevitable that, eventually, Shadow would come round to my way of thinking.

 

It would save a lot of time if all the rest of you did the same.

 

 

;) ;)  :biggrin:

 

I have seen the light.

:biggrin:


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#49 Trojan

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 08:12 PM

Do you believe Cameron has the bottle or the authority to do the latter? To genuinely attempt to modernise his party, instead of just talking about it? I don't. He is the one who stoked the flames over Europe by promising a referendum in the first place, to try and appease the Euroloons in his party. By doing that he has just made them stronger and whatever he concedes to them, they will never be satisfied. He has allowed Dorries back into the fold so she can repeatedly stab him in the front instead of expelling her from the party. He is the one who staked his Tory modernisation project on equal marriage and then didn't have the courage to speak in its favour during the debate in Parliament yesterday. Pathetic example of leadership. Kinnock was a giant in comparison.

 

I don't believe Cameron has the bottle or authority to do anything. If he had he wouldn't be avoiding PMQ's like he is, I believe he's done one out of the past 12.  The PM always has the inside track at PMQ's and always has the last word. The Opposition leader is always on a loser because of this. Cameron had fun when he was Leader of the Opposition with Blair at the end of his time and with the unpopular Brown. And he had fun at Mlliband's expense too in the early days of his government, but now things are going #### up he's finding every reason possible to avoid his Wednesday date.  Really he ought to resign.  Hague is the best man they've got, but he is bald and the last bald man to win a General Election in the UK was Churchill in 1951.(and he was up against another bald man in Attlee)  BTW Northern Sol he didn't have a majority of the electorate behind him either.


Edited by Trojan, 21 May 2013 - 08:15 PM.

"Your a one trick pony Trojan" - Parksider 10th March 2013

#50 John Drake

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 09:25 PM

That's where you're wrong. Behind that affable buffoon like image is an extremely clever and razor sharp ambitious man.

 

Would someone clever and razor sharp actually want the leadership of the Tory party? In its current form, it appears unleadable.

 

Sure, Boris could probably showboat his way into No.10 on personality alone (a sad indictment of British politics, but that's where we are, let's face it) but what would happen next? Would he give the Euroloons what they wanted, and if not, could he survive their subsequent displeasure?


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#51 Shadow

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 09:33 PM

Would someone clever and razor sharp actually want the leadership of the Tory party? In its current form, it appears unleadable.

 

Sure, Boris could probably showboat his way into No.10 on personality alone (a sad indictment of British politics, but that's where we are, let's face it) but what would happen next? Would he give the Euroloons what they wanted, and if not, could he survive their subsequent displeasure?

I need to wait and see what Wolford thinks on the subject before I can offer our opinion  ;)

 

I wasn't suggesting Boris actually wants the Tory leadership at this point just that he's not the lovable buffoon his appearances on HIGNFY make him appear.

I suspect he has a plan to get him into Number 10 already in process.


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#52 Methven Hornet

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 09:33 PM

There was a TV interview a few years ago with Annabel Goldie, former leader of the Scottish Conservatives in the Scottish Parliament where she was very proud of the way the Scottish Parliament worked.  As 4th party in terms of members she was still able to get through some key policies because the parties all worked together to create a consensus of governance.  In return for getting some of their more sensible policies implemented, they agreed in principle to not unreasonably oppose sensible things put forward by the governing party.  She also highlighted a few policies where the Tories had suggested an amendment to SNP bills and the bills were amended because everyone else accepted them as sensible.  Even now as a majority of SNP the smaller parties still get things through regularly.

 

There's no way that would work in the UK Parliament, if you're not in the governing party (or parties) then you get nothing beyond the ability to rant in public in the House.  If Cameron stood up today and said it was Tuesday afternoon, you'd probably get at least one senior MP on the other side (or even his own) putting forward an amendment to recognise that it's Wednesday morning in some parts of the world.

 

Yes, IIRC Goldie got more 'bobbies on the beat' - a high profile cause for the Tories at the time - in return for voting through the budget one year, and Labour cut a deal on apprenticeships in similar circumstances. This is sneered at by politicians at Westminster as 'horse trading' but it actually reflects more what the public want and vote for. 

Even in a majority-government parliament, such as the current one, there is opportunity for co-operation as in the minimum pricing for alcohol legislation. Driving to work early one morning last autumn, I almost swerved off the road when I heard Jackson Carlaw (Tory MSP) praising the leadership of Nicola Sturgeon during the legislative committee proceedings.

One of the reasons the parliament works so well is that its design had input from what has been called 'civic Scotland' during the pre-devolution Constitutional Convention. It was recognised that Westminster was not a particularly good example of a modern parliament, and actually, and artificially, promoted conflict and opposition for the sake of it.


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#53 Methven Hornet

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 09:34 PM

Who in their right mind would want the job?  The most capable MP the Tories have is Hague but he's northern and bald so gets a hard time from even the Tory friendly press.  The other relatively good Tory MPs get massive media spinning from their own side to trash their credibility before they can become a threat.  Who needs an opposition to trash you when your own side will do it so effectively.
 
For some unknown reason in the English based press, the "all fur coat and no knickers" rabble rousers like Farage get a relatively easy ride of having nothing of substance behind them and a glass jaw when criticism is thrown at them.  They can throw mud very effectively at the Tories from behind that protection.

 

It just makes the fall all the more special when it comes  :dancer: (but that's another thread :tongue: ).


Edited by Methven Hornet, 21 May 2013 - 09:37 PM.

"There are now more pandas in Scotland than Tory MPs."

#54 Methven Hornet

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 09:42 PM

Reading Methven's post it seems that the SNP got 53 seats from FPTP and 16 via top up?

 

Thank you, and...

 

Just to be clear  :D (absolutely clear) Scotland does not use AV in its parliamentary elections.


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#55 Wolford6

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 10:05 PM

I need to wait and see what Wolford thinks on the subject before I can offer our opinion  ;)

 

 

Nige and I have had a chat, and we are happy with you acting as our spokesman.

;) :)


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#56 Wolford6

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 10:27 AM

It never rains but pours for Call Me Dave

 

http://www.telegraph...was-banned.html


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