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Leigh Centurions

New management structure & TV

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#41 Padge

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 09:25 AM

For reference leigh got 5000 in a disastrous SL season in a ground not suitable for big gates
The same gate now would allow full cap and a profit, straight from the former chairmans lips
I believe a lower mid teAm would draw 6500

 

Why would 5,000 allow the full cap now when it didn't before, how come clubs with a higher average than that are not able to spend the full cap. That statement from your former chairman is a nonsense, maybe that's why he is the former chairman, I take it maths isn't his strong point.



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#42 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 10:05 AM

For reference leigh got 5000 in a disastrous SL season in a ground not suitable for big gates
The same gate now would allow full cap and a profit, straight from the former chairmans lips
I believe a lower mid teAm would draw 6500

how wasnt it suitable for 'big gates'. Was the capacity reduced? Were people put of because they thought they might not get in?

Leih were lucky that year because they have neighbours who bring a lot of away support. Even a basic analysis of the Centurions attendances that year higlights the clubs dependence on clubs like Wigan to provide that 5,000 average: which actually wasn't 5,000-you hav rounded the figure upwards.

 

edit: as for the full cap and a profit...


Edited by l'angelo mysterioso, 05 June 2013 - 10:06 AM.

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#43 Padge

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 10:43 AM

Hilton Park had a capacity of around 10k, Leigh averaged 4,750 at HP when in SL.

 

A good indicator of a clubs core support is games against London and Catalan, Leigh didn't play Catalan however the London attendance was 3,201.  This was only the 4th home game that season.

 

This is not about Leigh bashing, good to see they are modernising business wise, its about supporters needing a bit of a reality check as to how much work needs to be done.



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#44 Viking Warrior

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 10:48 AM

leigh is a staunch rl area but lately in junior and under 16's rugby the 2 leigh based clubs are struggling to attract players, perhaps they all want to play for the pies, that said i would love to see leigh in super league as they would offer a great deal in terms of facilities, crowds, etc etc the championship derbies with widnes were always sell outs at both grounds and just imagine what a league game against wigan or saints would give them.
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#45 Padge

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 11:02 AM

leigh is a staunch rl area but lately in junior and under 16's rugby the 2 leigh based clubs are struggling to attract players, perhaps they all want to play for the pies, that said i would love to see leigh in super league as they would offer a great deal in terms of facilities, crowds, etc etc the championship derbies with widnes were always sell outs at both grounds and just imagine what a league game against wigan or saints would give them.

 

Leigh v Widnes in SL got 5,170 just about 50% of capacity.

Widnes v Leigh in SL got 6,026 around 60% of capacity at the time.

 

Strange sell outs.

 

 

In the Championship in 2010 attendances were:

 

@ Leigh 3,392  around 28% of capacity

@ Widnes 3,356 around 25% of capacity

 

Even stranger sell outs.

 

I don't know where you get the idea that every Leigh v Widnes game was a sell out, its obviously not true.


Edited by Padge, 05 June 2013 - 11:04 AM.


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#46 Lobbygobbler

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 11:28 AM

leigh is a staunch rl area but lately in junior and under 16's rugby the 2 leigh based clubs are struggling to attract players, perhaps they all want to play for the pies, that said i would love to see leigh in super league as they would offer a great deal in terms of facilities, crowds, etc etc the championship derbies with widnes were always sell outs at both grounds and just imagine what a league game against wigan or saints would give them.


If the Leigh based amateur clubs are struggling for players (and I will check this) then this would be strong evidence that licensing and the lack of meaningful second tier games, is having a direct negative impact.

Why would any Leigh based amateurs consider playing for teams in Wigan?

#47 Viking Warrior

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 11:30 AM

Leigh v Widnes in SL got 5,170 just about 50% of capacity.
Widnes v Leigh in SL got 6,026 around 60% of capacity at the time.
 
Strange sell outs.
 
 
In the Championship in 2010 attendances were:
 
@ Leigh 3,392  around 28% of capacity
@ Widnes 3,356 around 25% of capacity
 
Even stranger sell outs.
 
I don't know where you get the idea that every Leigh v Widnes game was a sell out, its obviously not true.

figure of speech padge, they were always the highest crowds of the season...
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#48 JohnM

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 11:32 AM

It's good to see clubs like Leigh taking a positive attitude and aiming for a sustainable presence. It can't be easy but  I;m sure it will be worthwhile, especially with fans, club and stakeholders pulling together and abandoning victim-hood.

 

A sense of proportion is required though, as is  acceptance of the real situation. 

 

The world, has changes, England has changed and  peoples ambitions, expectations and behavior have all advanced. We can't put SuperLeague, Sky, the Internet, out of town shopping centres, holidays, ease of travel to cities such as Manchester or Liverpool etc back in the the box. The realities of modern life indicate that  things in the game  will never ever be what they were at this level, and the certainly will never ever be what some exaggeratedly think they were.



#49 Viking Warrior

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 11:33 AM

If the Leigh based amateur clubs are struggling for players (and I will check this) then this would be strong evidence that licensing and the lack of meaningful second tier games, is having a direct negative impact.

Why would any Leigh based amateurs consider playing for teams in Wigan?

leigh miners under 18's failed to complete fixtures last season and had 90 points+ put on them by thatto heath, in junior games both miners and easts turned up with the bare minimum of players with no substitutes on several occasions. that really surprised me as both clubs have been stalwarts of the amateur game for many many years.
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#50 shrek

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 11:46 AM

If the Leigh based amateur clubs are struggling for players (and I will check this) then this would be strong evidence that licensing and the lack of meaningful second tier games, is having a direct negative impact.

Why would any Leigh based amateurs consider playing for teams in Wigan?

There's also evidence that the Open Age switch to Summer Rugby is affecting clubs, some positive some negative (take a look at the National Conference forum on this very website!) and Leigh East seem to have some internal politics to contend with so I'm not sure how much you can pin on licensing at Super League level having a baring on amateur clubs!

 

There's a whole host of reasons why lads in Leigh would play in Wigan and further afield and I'm sure if you look you'll find lads playing for Leigh teams from out of town as well, such is life.



#51 Lobbygobbler

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 11:56 AM

There's also evidence that the Open Age switch to Summer Rugby is affecting clubs, some positive some negative (take a look at the National Conference forum on this very website!) and Leigh East seem to have some internal politics to contend with so I'm not sure how much you can pin on licensing at Super League level having a baring on amateur clubs!

There's a whole host of reasons why lads in Leigh would play in Wigan and further afield and I'm sure if you look you'll find lads playing for Leigh teams from out of town as well, such is life.


Ever heard of travel limitations?

When I was a kid I played for both Leigh Rangers (Based then on the extreme east side of Leigh), and Leigh Juniors which was based closer to were I lived). I chose to play most of my youth at Leigh Juniors because it was far easier to get to (my parents didnt have a car).

I would never have considered playing out of town - especially not for a Wigan club

#52 shrek

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 12:00 PM

Ever heard of travel limitations?

When I was a kid I played for both Leigh Rangers (Based then on the extreme east side of Leigh), and Leigh Juniors which was based closer to were I lived). I chose to play most of my youth at Leigh Juniors because it was far easier to get to (my parents didnt have a car).

I would never have considered playing out of town - especially not for a Wigan club

Its hardly travelling to the ends of the earth though is it!

 

I'm sure kids these days mostly come from homes with cars and mostly will no doubt want to play there rugby with there mates.  Open age lads will move for a whole host of reasons, I'm sure in seasons gone by for example when Leigh East were European Champions they attracted kids and seniors from far and wide.



#53 JohnM

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 12:18 PM

Ever heard of travel limitations?

When I was a kid I played for both Leigh Rangers (Based then on the extreme east side of Leigh), and Leigh Juniors which was based closer to were I lived). I chose to play most of my youth at Leigh Juniors because it was far easier to get to (my parents didnt have a car).

I would never have considered playing out of town - especially not for a Wigan club

 

 

That was then and this is now.  In the 21st century, kids have greater  ambition, higher expectations....and bicycles.   You'll have missed ever such a lot not playing at away games.



#54 Lobbygobbler

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 06:42 PM

That was then and this is now. In the 21st century, kids have greater ambition, higher expectations....and bicycles. You'll have missed ever such a lot not playing at away games.


1/ I did have a bike - however I didnt fancy a 3-4mile ride in the rain. Also it would have been nicked as I recall there was a big council estate near the clubhouse.
2/ Of course I played away games. Everyone got lifts to those from a central meeting point (usually Leigh library car park)

#55 sweaty craiq

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 08:43 PM

Leigh in SL would spend full cap with 5000 gates trust me I know

#56 Padge

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 08:53 PM

Leigh in SL would spend full cap with 5000 gates trust me I know

So go on then how, if you know, then surely you can inform the rugby world how its done since a good few clubs would love to know how.

 

Hull KR, averaging 8k have been subsidised to the tune £500,000/season and Hudgell as all but given up.  


Edited by Padge, 05 June 2013 - 08:57 PM.


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#57 Lobbygobbler

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 09:27 PM

So go on then how, if you know, then surely you can inform the rugby world how its done since a good few clubs would love to know how.

Hull KR, averaging 8k have been subsidised to the tune £500,000/season and Hudgell as all but given up.


Isnt this partially to do with funding ground improvements at Craven Park?
There are clubs in SL who are on lower gates than Hull KR but dont seem to be in as much trouble (e.g. Wakey, Cas, etc).
Why dont you use the subsidation argument with Wire and Saints who are little better supported? If their benefactors pulled put why would they be better off than Hull KR?

#58 Padge

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 09:38 PM

Isnt this partially to do with funding ground improvements at Craven Park?
There are clubs in SL who are on lower gates than Hull KR but dont seem to be in as much trouble (e.g. Wakey, Cas, etc).
Why dont you use the subsidation argument with Wire and Saints who are little better supported? If their benefactors pulled put why would they be better off than Hull KR?

Saints and Warrington pull in 3k and 2k more than Hull KR, that is double and more than the 5k that SC is claiming Leigh can break even on and spend the full cap. That puts both clubs at over 10k,

 

I want to know how Leigh will pay the full cap on crowds of 5k as claimed, because if its by a directors subsidy then its going to have to be the biggest in SL.

 

Wakefield and Castleford do not spend the full cap, so the comparison isn't valid.



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#59 shrek

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 10:14 PM

Back of a beer mat maths;
Its £18 for an adult match day ticket at Leigh.
Average crowd is circa 2000 this season give or take, so the 5k crowd would deliver at most an extra £585,000, throw in the Sky money of what circa £1 million a year (I loose track of the exact figure) plus Leighs existing salary cap spend that was posted on here as being £200k or so.

Hey presto you've got roughly enough to pay the full cap (excluding exemptions and bonuses) and turn a small profit.

Obviously you've not factored in the cost of full time coaching staff, admin staff, medical staff, training facilities for the extra days a full time setup requires them, additional matchday costs (you've doubled the gate afterall!), the fact not all your ticket sales will be at adult matchday prices, nobody else in the history of Super League has turned a profit on a 5k crowd. Well apart from any of that and any other costs/factors I've missed, its all looking peachy!

#60 Larry the Leit

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 10:19 PM

Back of a beer mat maths;
Its £18 for an adult match day ticket at Leigh.
Average crowd is circa 2000 this season give or take, so the 5k crowd would deliver at most an extra £585,000, throw in the Sky money of what circa £1 million a year (I loose track of the exact figure) plus Leighs existing salary cap spend that was posted on here as being £200k or so.

Hey presto you've got roughly enough to pay the full cap (excluding exemptions and bonuses) and turn a small profit.

Obviously you've not factored in the cost of full time coaching staff, admin staff, medical staff, training facilities for the extra days a full time setup requires them, additional matchday costs (you've doubled the gate afterall!), the fact not all your ticket sales will be at adult matchday prices, nobody else in the history of Super League has turned a profit on a 5k crowd. Well apart from any of that and any other costs/factors I've missed, its all looking peachy!

 

Coach £70k-100k

Admin, Other coaches, Medics etc, £250k - £300k

Travel/Hotels £50k

Plus loads of other gubbins.

 

It's got £500k-£750k loss written all over it.


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