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Toulouse think they will hear about Superleague decision soon


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#61 The Parksider

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Posted 06 June 2013 - 06:54 PM

1. Do they have letters of promise, or even statements of intent, from the government agencies or industrial sponsors that if they get into SL that the money will be forthcoming? 

2. At least there are proven examples of Championship clubs making efforts and investing money to reach minimum SL standards.

1. Did Bradford, Wakefield or Salford have such proof of funds?

2. Investing every last penny to get to the starting gate only. After that as you said they need to turnover £3.2M to just stay on the SL ladder. Will they have to have letters of promise and statements of intent for the extra £1,000,000 a season they'll need?

Edited by The Parksider, 06 June 2013 - 06:55 PM.


#62 ckn

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Posted 06 June 2013 - 07:07 PM

1. Did Bradford, Wakefield or Salford have such proof of funds?

2. Investing every last penny to get to the starting gate only. After that as you said they need to turnover £3.2M to just stay on the SL ladder. Will they have to have letters of promise and statements of intent for the extra £1,000,000 a season they'll need?

1.  They already had stadia that met the grade.  They already had SL grade players.  They already had proof of income to meet the licensing criteria.  They were awarded Super League licenses after having met the minimum standards, and exceeded them in many criteria.  Why not include Catalans in your point, they only achieved a C license as well?  Huddersfield, C license.  Cas, C license.  Bradford achieved a B.

 

2.  The licensing criteria are there for a reason, as long as they meet them at the time of application then they compete against the established names for a place, there are a few SL sides who would be very nervous if a couple of Championship sides achieved enough for a C grade license.  No-one expects a newly promoted side to succeed immediately but the criteria are there to ensure that they at least have a good chance of doing so.  Even if the Championship sides invest the money and don't get in, they're providing an extra level of professionalism to their club that can only enhance the Championship itself.


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#63 Northern Sol

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Posted 06 June 2013 - 09:59 PM

1. Did Bradford, Wakefield or Salford have such proof of funds?
 

No, but they had evidence of how high their turnover was likely to be. Nobody really knows how much Toulouse will turn over. Hence the need for proof of funds.


Edited by Northern Sol, 06 June 2013 - 10:00 PM.


#64 ParraEelsNRL

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Posted 07 June 2013 - 04:47 AM

Finally, if SL were allowed to make their own choices about things then we'd get the situation we have with Australia where international development is a severe and unwelcome nuisance that just gets in the way of making clubs do as they see fit.

 

 

 

In the past this was the case because the game was owned by a massive global media empire who drip fed the game as little at it had to much like it is doing to the SL now just to survive.

 

The commission is running the game now and in the first 6 months of doing so, they managed to put on a Samoa v Tonga game, something the previous owners/admin had no intention of ever doing.  There has been more international talk from the ARLC in the last 6 months alone than the entire time the News Limited lot ran the game (nearly 2 decades). (well outside of running the international game down or just plain lying in some articles when they bothered to mention it)

 

Good luck to Toulouse, I hope they thrive and for goodness sake, get the structures right for RL in England, and stick with it.



#65 The Parksider

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Posted 07 June 2013 - 08:21 AM

Why not include Catalans in your point, they only achieved a C license as well?

I have the summary in front of me.

"Catalans are a club with a clear vision on how to develop their commercial business, by the end of the current license they will have their current facility increasing turnover and improving their player development system. The clubs governance model is strong and it has aggressive plans to grow turnover in the coming years".

The club were awarded a "B" license and as far as I can see they are on their way to an "A".

It seems to me that the benefits of having Catalans in the Superleague are immense compared to the benefit of replacing them with a small town club in the north of England, but that is what a number of people on here would like to do.

They give an international dimension to Superleague and hopefully in time will return a competitive International dimension to RL in the northern hempisphere. What price would you put on our badly struggling game the 9,000 fans, the growing turnover, the increasing number of French quality players?

What price would you put on Toulouse being able to do the same and double that benefit?

I think Richard Lewis was a good leader of the game and did his best before the realities of our games difficulties clicked in. He didn't mess about, he put Catalans in and shunted out two clubs to make way for them. At that time Catalans could prove little through jumping licensing hoops which didn't exist.

It's beyond me why we all rail against a licensing system that we see as a sham, then when it come to Toulouse we want to have the licensing system applied to them over rigidly to the point we may be looking a gift horse in the mouth.

Yes I know that they may fail, but if that is a crime then maybe the many failures M62 clubs have regularly supplied, and the way in which Hudgell. Fulton and O'Connor all accepted licenses with glee then stopped putting the money in one year on should be taken into account? Would it be OK for Toulouse to just get a rich director to promise to bankroll them then he can "step down" later??

#66 Futtocks

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Posted 07 June 2013 - 08:49 AM

There has been more international talk from the ARLC in the last 6 months alone than the entire time the News Limited lot ran the game (nearly 2 decades). (well outside of running the international game down or just plain lying in some articles when they bothered to mention it)

I really really hope they follow through with this in the long term. The potential for Rugby League in the Pacific nations is immense, and any development will be mutually beneficial.

A mind is like a parachute. It doesn’t work if it isn’t open. Frank Zappa (1940 - 1993)


#67 The Parksider

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Posted 07 June 2013 - 09:05 AM

(Bradford, Wakefield, Salford) already had proof of income to meet the licensing criteria.

But they didn't.

Salford and London did not have any "proof of income" adequate for Superleague.

Bradford had a high turnover yes but clubs can go spectacularly bust on high turnovers (as we saw) so that's a nonsense.

The Licensing system looks at the "business plan" primarily and that is income, expenditure and growth plans and many of the Superleague clubs business plans have a massive hole in them that is filled by a rich mans promise to fill the hole with his own money.

They can't be held to that promise as we saw with Mr. Samuels, Mr. Richardson, Mr. Wilkinson etc. They walked away.

Currently "standing down" are Mr. Hudgell, Mr. O'Connor and Mr. Fulton so three more giant holes are blown in their business plans for the rest of the license period.

What is it we want from Touluse? To deposit a "guarantee" of say £3,000,000 with the RFL. It's been offered before when Mr. "I'm standing down" O'Connor offered the RFL half a million for a license?

#68 statties

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Posted 07 June 2013 - 09:23 AM

And who will be responsible for the Championships ?


Like i say, the professional sport will be governed by the independent body.

#69 Northern Sol

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Posted 07 June 2013 - 10:03 AM

But they didn't.

Salford and London did not have any "proof of income" adequate for Superleague.

Bradford had a high turnover yes but clubs can go spectacularly bust on high turnovers (as we saw) so that's a nonsense.

The Licensing system looks at the "business plan" primarily and that is income, expenditure and growth plans and many of the Superleague clubs business plans have a massive hole in them that is filled by a rich mans promise to fill the hole with his own money.

They can't be held to that promise as we saw with Mr. Samuels, Mr. Richardson, Mr. Wilkinson etc. They walked away.

Currently "standing down" are Mr. Hudgell, Mr. O'Connor and Mr. Fulton so three more giant holes are blown in their business plans for the rest of the license period.

What is it we want from Touluse? To deposit a "guarantee" of say £3,000,000 with the RFL. It's been offered before when Mr. "I'm standing down" O'Connor offered the RFL half a million for a license?

Only you could characterise John Wilkinson as "a man who walked away". He was chairman for 25 years or so and sold the club to someone with more money than him. He certainly doesn't deserve to be slagged off in this way by someone with an anti-Salford agenda.



#70 Larry the Leit

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Posted 07 June 2013 - 10:12 AM

Only you could characterise John Wilkinson as "a man who walked away". He was chairman for 25 years or so and sold the club to someone with more money than him. He certainly doesn't deserve to be slagged off in this way by someone with an anti-Salford agenda.

 

Fair comment about John Wilkinson I'd suggest. Whether Parksider has any anti Salford agenda or nor I couldn't say, his views seem to change with the wind.  


Edited by Larry the Leit, 07 June 2013 - 10:13 AM.

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#71 audois

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Posted 07 June 2013 - 10:19 AM

From what I understand the City Council & Regional bodies are ready to invest may be up to €7M in renovating their Stade des Minimes ground. I think they will want some assurances that that we be rewarded. If they got the nod from the RFL now they would be in a slightly similar situation to the Catalans back in 2006 - time to build on & off the field.

They are lifting their on field activities. They missed by a whisker two Finals in 2013 & their U21s where runners up to the Catalans on the league ladder. Three former Dragons players with well over a hundred SL appearances under their belts - Andrew Bentley, Kane Bentley & Cyril Stacul are rumoured to be on their way to Toulouse too. Aaron Wood a top Australian here is also on board for September. May be they're cranking up their operation. They hosted the Elite 1 semis this year & drew 5500; so now all eyes on Stade Ernest Wallon in a fortnight when the Dragons are in town for the Hull KR clash. Billboards cluttering the place promoting the event. Fingers crossed.

Edited by audois, 07 June 2013 - 10:26 AM.

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#72 Larry the Leit

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Posted 07 June 2013 - 10:30 AM

From what I understand the City Council & Regional bodies are ready to invest may be up to €7M in renovating their Stade des Minimes ground. I think they will want some assurances that that we be rewarded. If they got the nod from the RFL now they would be in a slightly similar situation to the Catalans back in 2006 - time to build on & off the field.

 

I've played at the Stade des Minimes and I thought it was a cracking little ground.  I don't remember it being that good for car parking and I've no real memory as to how close to the centre of the city it is.

 

I think the big question for me, is who's next after Toulouse in France assuming that they come into Superleague and are a success like Les Catalans.


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#73 Northern Sol

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Posted 07 June 2013 - 10:49 AM

Fair comment about John Wilkinson I'd suggest. Whether Parksider has any anti Salford agenda or nor I couldn't say, his views seem to change with the wind.  

Indeed they do but he's constantly banging on about "No-one ever complains about Salford" in comparison to London even though Salford's problems aren't really comparable. Or "Rugby league has failed in Salford / Manchester" when he vehemently denies that it has failed in Wales or London. Sheffield is another club that he has a thing about - rugby league has failed there apparently and can't ever succeed.

 

Hence the comments about Wilko walking, they are designed to draw a comparison between Salford and Crusaders / Broncos. Only Wilko didn't leave Salford in the lurch like Samuel (the Messiah according to Parky) and his commitment lasted 20 years longer than Samuel.



#74 Northern Sol

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Posted 07 June 2013 - 10:51 AM

I've played at the Stade des Minimes and I thought it was a cracking little ground.  I don't remember it being that good for car parking and I've no real memory as to how close to the centre of the city it is.

 

I think the big question for me, is who's next after Toulouse in France assuming that they come into Superleague and are a success like Les Catalans.

I can imagine the RFL inviting Toulouse but I think a 3rd French club would require a French TV deal. I don't think a 3rd club is likely in the short-run (not enough players) and it would probably be a regional / merged team. Toulouse are the only realistic candidates as a stand-alone entity.



#75 The Parksider

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Posted 07 June 2013 - 12:33 PM

Fair comment about John Wilkinson I'd suggest. Whether Parksider has any anti Salford agenda or nor I couldn't say, his views seem to change with the wind.

If you want to know whether I have any anti-salford bias i suggest you have the courtesy to ask me and not leave it to people who are genuinely biased against certain Rugby league clubs to give you an equally biased answer.

Equally if you believe my view on anything has "changed with the wind" then set out what that view is and how you think it has changed and don't be so rude. I don't seem to be able to get it through to you that to have a good debate you have to stop calling people.

Salford and Crusaders both made the 13/14th clubs in an enlarged Superleague in 2009. A big city club in the north and an expansion club in an area sympathetic to Rugby league. Both were a potential boost to the game we had to try for. Both had their struggles, both Chairmen gave up due to the financial strain.

People can read what suits them into that scenario, those with genuine bias may paint John Wilkinson as a hero and a saint and Leighton Samuels as a cruel and heartless villain. But my position is and has always been clear. I do not like people having a go at non English heartland clubs for things they do/can't do and excusing the M62 clubs for being just as bad.

That is bias and that position I have has never changed "with the wind" if you think it has then you are misunderstood.

Edited by The Parksider, 07 June 2013 - 12:35 PM.


#76 GeordieSaint

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Posted 07 June 2013 - 12:37 PM

From what I understand the City Council & Regional bodies are ready to invest may be up to €7M in renovating their Stade des Minimes ground. I think they will want some assurances that that we be rewarded. If they got the nod from the RFL now they would be in a slightly similar situation to the Catalans back in 2006 - time to build on & off the field.

They are lifting their on field activities. They missed by a whisker two Finals in 2013 & their U21s where runners up to the Catalans on the league ladder. Three former Dragons players with well over a hundred SL appearances under their belts - Andrew Bentley, Kane Bentley & Cyril Stacul are rumoured to be on their way to Toulouse too. Aaron Wood a top Australian here is also on board for September. May be they're cranking up their operation. They hosted the Elite 1 semis this year & drew 5500; so now all eyes on Stade Ernest Wallon in a fortnight when the Dragons are in town for the Hull KR clash. Billboards cluttering the place promoting the event. Fingers crossed.

 

In my opinion, a second club in France is a must in 2015. Toulouse seem like the perfect option, which your post and those of Cliff's highlight time and time again. I wish them all the best in their application.


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#77 keighley

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Posted 07 June 2013 - 12:39 PM

1. Did Bradford, Wakefield or Salford have such proof of funds?

2. Investing every last penny to get to the starting gate only. After that as you said they need to turnover £3.2M to just stay on the SL ladder. Will they have to have letters of promise and statements of intent for the extra £1,000,000 a season they'll need?

 

Re 1 above. No they didn't and look what happened to them. They all went bust. It's time we started learning from our past failures. There are negatives in admitting a French team in that they do not bring revenue to the table via travelling support and they do not generate sales of Sky dishes to placate our major broadcast partner, so we need to ensure that they are not going to compound these negatives by going bust as well.



#78 The Parksider

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Posted 07 June 2013 - 12:49 PM

1. There are negatives in admitting a French team in that they do not bring revenue to the table via travelling support

2. they do not generate sales of Sky dishes to placate our major broadcast partner, so we need to ensure that they are not going to compound these negatives by going bust as well.

1. Then we must reject Les Catalans from SL as soon as possible.

2. So if Toulouse were admitted and Castleford were relegated how many SKY dishes would that lose?

#79 Northern Sol

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Posted 07 June 2013 - 12:49 PM

Equally if you believe my view on anything has "changed with the wind" then set out what that view is and how you think it has changed and don't be so rude. I don't seem to be able to get it through to you that to have a good debate you have to stop calling people.

 

<snip>


That is bias and that position I have has never changed "with the wind" if you think it has then you are misunderstood.

 

Parky circa 2008 - "finance doesn't matter"

Parky circa 2012 - "London need central funding from the RFL"

 

Parky on Crusaders - "A Welsh team in SL guarantees a competitive fixture for England - that's why Crusaders should be in SL"

Parky on Toulouse - "Having one French side in SL isn't enough to guarantee a competitive fixture - that's why we need a second French club"

 

Recently from the same thread:-

"You can't build in the Championship, expansion has to take place in SL"

"Crusaders crowds were going up before they joined SL"

 

Parky in Sheffield in SL - "It's been tried there and it will never work, the crowds are too poor"

Parky on a Welsh side in SL - "Saying that RL has failed in Wales is like saying it's failed in Oldham or Rochdale. We need to keep trying"

 

Parky on RL in Salford / Manchester - "They've been trying this for years and they've never captured the Manchester market. Time to cut losses"

Parky on RL in London - "We need to keep trying because London is a huge city"


Edited by Northern Sol, 07 June 2013 - 12:59 PM.


#80 Northern Sol

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Posted 07 June 2013 - 01:39 PM

those with genuine bias may paint John Wilkinson as a hero and a saint and Leighton Samuels as a cruel and heartless villain. 

No, I think the vast majority of Salford fans see John Wilkinson in that light. I think the vast majority of Welsh rugby league fans* do see Samuel (you never did learn his name) as a pantomime villain without the jokes..

 

* and Welsh rugby union fans and quite a few Welsh soccer fans

 

That you call this bias says a lot.






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