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Toulouse think they will hear about Superleague decision soon


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#121 Larry the Leit

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 11:35 AM


2. Absolutely and so treat Toulouse as they are which is an RL heartland club not an expansion club, when were they formed - anyone know??

 

1937.  Does google not work for you?

 

One thing that needs to be considered is that Toulouse is one club in a large city.  It's not like Cas, where there is one professional club and a whole network of amateur ones.


Edited by Larry the Leit, 10 June 2013 - 11:35 AM.


#122 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 11:39 AM

1937. Does google not work for you?

One thing that needs to be considered is that Toulouse is one club in a large city. It's not like Cas, where there is one professional club and a whole network of amateur ones.

And two other professional clubs almost within walking distance of each other
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#123 Larry the Leit

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 11:48 AM

And two other professional clubs almost within walking distance of each other

 

More if you include Hunslet and Leeds.

 

I don't see it as a negative that West Yorkshire has an abundance of people playing and watching RL, I know you don't either Frank.  Toulouse on the other hand, and I speak from some experience here - albeit from some time ago, does not have the density of RL fans on the ground that West Yorkshire is blessed with, and so will need a much wider geographical area to work within in order to get the punters in.



#124 ckn

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 11:50 AM

1. Sorry CKN still don't understand how you make anyone prove they will make the investments. I suppose the Maire of Toulouse can show a big budget for local sports promotion, French aerospace giants may say they will consider investing in Toulouse if they get in Superleague and flash their latest xmillion of profits, and Dr. Koukash's accountant can show his estimated worth, but they can pull out anytime and I do not see how they can be held to their promises. Mr. Hudgell could have shown his worth in 2012 but this year he's announced he'll pull the funding, what price money and promises?.

I think the logical way to deal with the issue is to do what the RFL once threatened - to remove the licence. However when that has been a possibility e.g. Bradford, i didn't see anyone chomping at the bit to come in, based on having to join mid licence. Could it work by any replacement club automatically getting a minimum of 3 years if they deliver promises? e.g. London finish this year and Fev get next year and the next license round.

2. Absolutely and so treat Toulouse as they are which is an RL heartland club not an expansion club, when were they formed - anyone know??

Why shouldn't they front up some substance?  Surely if it's a selling point of them getting a SL license then they need to show some proof.  A statement of intent isn't a legally binding promise but does indicate commitment beyond an empty statement from a club about unnamed potential investors and unclaimed grants; it puts a name to a backer essentially saying "yes, we are seriously interested but are making no promises yet".  It's a well understood commercial concept that happens day-in, day-out for everything from small transactions up to multi-£bn mergers; it allows serious, grown-up discussions to take place based on real figures, even if they're not fully committed yet.  If the backers won't even commit to giving this, or the club aren't showing this to everyone they can, then it makes me more than suspicious about how serious or credible their backing really is.

 

The likes of Fev have shown their statement of intent very, very clearly by starting refurbishment work.  That's about 100 times more valuable than PR fluff.


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#125 audois

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 12:39 PM

Its worth remembering that Catalan jumped through lots of hoops before their arrival in 2006. Twice they were knocked back from starting after being accepted. I said earlier if Toulouse get the nod now they would have a couple of years to build up & get everything ship shape. The Dragons the template should make it that bit easier;French have experience now after eight years. And yes sharing the players a challenge. But somebody has make the foot print wider & wider. The deeper bit may have to come later.
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#126 The Parksider

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 01:07 PM

1937.  Does google not work for you?
 
One thing that needs to be considered is that Toulouse is one club in a large city.  It's not like Cas, where there is one professional club and a whole network of amateur ones.

It does...sorry....thank you for that....

#127 The Parksider

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 01:16 PM

Why shouldn't they front up some substance?  
The likes of Fev have shown their statement of intent very, very clearly by starting refurbishment work.  That's about 100 times more valuable than PR fluff.

No doubt it would help if it was real substance. O'Connor offered to lodge a £500,000 guarantee with the RFL to guarantee his intentions towards Superleague as a result of Widnes' rejection in 2009.

Now that was fronting up.

As for the Featherstone refurbishment works, haven't Toulouse also done some work to their ground too, like expanding the capacity to 10,000 or something???.

 


Edited by The Parksider, 10 June 2013 - 01:23 PM.


#128 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 01:57 PM

More if you include Hunslet and Leeds.

I don't see it as a negative that West Yorkshire has an abundance of people playing and watching RL, I know you don't either Frank. Toulouse on the other hand, and I speak from some experience here - albeit from some time ago, does not have the density of RL fans on the ground that West Yorkshire is blessed with, and so will need a much wider geographical area to work within in order to get the punters in.

I don't see it as a negative either
I do see it as a negative that the elite competition has three teams from the same limited area all with a limited amount to offer the competition and only one with a potential for growth after years of taking the pi ss. if it came to a choice between fev and Toulouse Toulouse win hands down
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#129 oiseau

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 02:09 PM



As for the Featherstone refurbishment works, haven't Toulouse also done some work to their ground too, like expanding the capacity to 10,000 or something??

 


nah, Toulouse haven't started the refurbishment work - they are awaiting a green light from the RFL before committing - if they get the go-ahead work will commence in the new year with the first phase being completed for the start of SL in 2015 with the second phase following soon after - all 'big' games that is, with larger crowds expected will be played at Stade Toulousain thanks to an agreement made in 2012
 



#130 Wellsy4HullFC

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 03:17 PM

The advantage of Toulouse and the ground situation, like you say, is that there are a few grounds in the area that they can play at until then. Obvious Stade Ernest Wallon is one (although probably a bit big for what they'll need). There was another one mentioned before as well. I think it was this one:
http://www.worldstad...rs_selery.shtml
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#131 The Parksider

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 03:29 PM

Toulouse haven't started the refurbishment work - they are awaiting a green light from the RFL before committing - if they get the go-ahead work will commence in the new year.......

Thank you for that..... seems in reality Tououse won't be proving anything to the 2014 licensing commitee. Following the big four's visit the other month and a conflab with the RFL it's a case of "we decide". One rule for one etc....

#132 a.n Other

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 05:32 PM

1. Take your pick on which areas Featherstone are in front of the rest on wether investment, crowds or player development. I think you will accept Featherstone are well in front of Sheffield who can't grow their crowds or develop sheffield players into SL players, and well in front of leigh who are skint and a feeder club.

2, As for how far Featherstone are in front of Halifax I reckon this is your problem, as Fax are your team. I'd certainly welcome your analysis in the various areas of the licensing criteria where your clubs stand againnst featherstone??You have already made a start by telling me that Halifax's crowds are going down and featherstones going up, so Fax are miles behind there. care to fill in the gaps beyond that most important of points?


3. We discussed the situation CC clubs have of having all on to make the £1,000,000 turnover criteria for Superleague. I suggested Rovers would be stuck going up becaise £1M of turnover plus £1.2M of SKY money only comes to £2.2M.CKN suggests you need £3.2M just to hang on to the bottom rung of Superleague and you certainly need£6M to compete with the big boys of SL.When I suggested that the answer was Mr. Nahaboos promise to "spend full cap year on year" IIRC you spoke about how this was not guaranteed and that Mr. Abbot and other potential investors may also be able to match that, so I was not to discount Halifax. You felt they were equal contenders to Featherstone even though both applications would be based on a big fat "financial promise"And back on topic a promise that Toulouse are't allowed to make for some reason. They have to open the suitcase and show the bundles....


1, so it's only the crowds that they are behind on? Do you know what player pathway they have in place at Sheffield?

2, not my problem at all, I am not the one making suggestion that clubs are "miles" behind others, especially when they don't really have any facts to back them up. So I would suggest this is your problem.

3, You said that "Even their own fans say that to get round the debacle of their business being adjudged to as "falling below the standards" it's needs, Mr Abbot and others stump up riches". It's isn't the same as your point you have said above. Yes we have discussed that Tony Abbot is putting money in to the club, I haven't read any post about him "stumping" up cash to get round anything.. Please point out where this has been discussed?

Oh and you took it off topic, with statements about other clubs current standing.

#133 Ponterover

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 05:34 PM

Thank you for that..... seems in reality Tououse won't be proving anything to the 2014 licensing commitee. Following the big four's visit the other month and a conflab with the RFL it's a case of "we decide". One rule for one etc....

 

There isn't going to be a licensing comittee in 2014.

 

Hetherington admits in today's LE that there has to be change and that the 3x8 "has merit".   Surprised you didn't mention this when you were singing his praises earlier in the thread.

 

Nigel Wood has already stated that the status quo is not an option also.


Edited by Ponterover, 10 June 2013 - 05:39 PM.


#134 oiseau

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 05:47 PM

Thank you for that..... seems in reality Tououse won't be proving anything to the 2014 licensing commitee. Following the big four's visit the other month and a conflab with the RFL it's a case of "we decide". One rule for one etc....

many of the present SL chairmen plus Ralph Rimmer & other RFL bods have either visited Toulouse or had talks with Carlos over the past few years - the RFL see Toulouse as a genuine expansion area compared to similar areas of the uk

 

the rfl want to feather their own nest obviously and see Toulouse as a possible way to increase the profile of SL

 

there is no way the Toulouse city council will release the redevelopment money without an SL agreement which is a  pretty sensible approach I would say - yes 'one rule for one' etc but who cares ?



#135 oiseau

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 07:55 PM



As for the crowds they will not only come from Toulouse but also the wider RL community (Much which is currently dormant) Albi/St Gaudens/Cahors/Villefrance etc.
CM

 

 

true CM but the Toulouse catchment area is larger than that - we are looking at a radius of about 100km plus including the Carcassonne/Limoux areas Albi/Gaillac St Gaudens to the south and a very important area is around Villeneuve sur Lot maybe extending to Bordeaux



#136 The Parksider

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 05:45 AM

1, so it's only the crowds that they are behind on? Do you know what player pathway they have in place at Sheffield?

2, not my problem at all, I am not the one making suggestion that clubs are "miles" behind others, especially when they don't really have any facts to back them up. So I would suggest this is your problem.

3, You said that "Even their own fans say that to get round the debacle of their business being adjudged to as "falling below the standards" it's needs, Mr Abbot and others stump up riches". It's isn't the same as your point you have said above. Yes we have discussed that Tony Abbot is putting money in to the club, I haven't read any post about him "stumping" up cash to get round anything.. Please point out where this has been discussed?

Oh and you took it off topic, with statements about other clubs current standing.

1. No, clubs on less that a £million turnover are £millions of pounds short of clubs on turnovers of £4, £5 and £6 and £7 million turnovers. Yes Shefield have a player development pathway, I know all about it, but what it needs to do is produce professional players which Sheffield don't. How many junior amateur clubs are there in Sheffield - you tell me now. Being an average of £2-3,000,000 a season short for competing in Superleague is miles behind. Not producing professional players is miles behind.

2. So the amount of money clubs turn over, the amount of players they produce and the level of support they have are not "facts" enough for you then? Then we must beg to differ. I have no problem standing back and comparing Superleague clubs to potential Superleague clubs, I make a direct comparison.

3. Wether it's been discussed or not the simple point is if you have few fans the chairman can pay for the empty seats, if you don't produce Pro players the chairman can buy all the players in that's always been the case, that's the case Fev fans admit to. Their only pro they produced recently is tearing it up at Leeds, they admit they'll need a number of pros and will not get big crowds, and so point to Mr. Nahaboo who has pledged to guaranteed "full cap spend".

Yes it's off topic, apologies to everyone but you asked and it doesn't harm to answer.

#137 The Parksider

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 05:53 AM

many of the present SL chairmen plus Ralph Rimmer & other RFL bods have either visited Toulouse or had talks with Carlos over the past few years - the RFL see Toulouse as a genuine expansion area compared to similar areas of the uk
 
the rfl want to feather their own nest obviously and see Toulouse as a possible way to increase the profile of SL
 
there is no way the Toulouse city council will release the redevelopment money without an SL agreement which is a  pretty sensible approach I would say - yes 'one rule for one' etc but who cares ?

Thank you for that. I don't care at all that it's "one rule for one" what overides everything is making Super League a success. The game should have over ridden the clubs years ago IMHO and treated Superleague and the SKY contract as belonging to the game not the clubs. Deciding things by "committee" isn't good business but it seems in the real world the top few club chairman decide with the RFL.

Yes it's sensible in my book for Toulouse not to build a 10,000 seater without an SL place. I guess if they get the nod soon and start building that will be "concrete evidence" of the clubs intentions.

Even having said that HKR have created concrete intentions developing New Craven Park and the wallet's now shut there.

Edited by The Parksider, 11 June 2013 - 05:55 AM.


#138 The Parksider

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 05:56 AM

Hetherington admits in today's LE that there has to be change and that the 3x8 "has merit".   Surprised you didn't mention this when you were singing his praises earlier in the thread.

He also said that the problem is in the detail, surprised you left this out?

Edited by The Parksider, 11 June 2013 - 05:57 AM.


#139 Cliff Spracklen

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 10:18 AM

Whatever the current status, activity of the licencing committee, or the state of play in the restructure proposals the nettle needs to be firmly and decisively grasped on the acceptance of Toulouse into Super League. Fortunately it appears that decision is not too far away. Both Canetman, who really is on the ground and knows personally many of the key players in French RL and Oiseau who also has an "on the ground" sense of what Toulouse means in terms of it's position as a potential major player in French sport, are both absolutely spot on. If Toulouse are not given the green light soon a major opportunity for the sport will be lost. Concerns about how many actual RL fans there are currently on the ground in the city is an irrelevance. Equally the presence of strong RU and football clubs in the city is equally not a hindrance to the prospects for a Super League club, but positively an indicator that this affluent, young, vital city will support any high profile successful operation, as will the local wealthy Mairie and other public and commercial organisations, which proliferate in the area.
And as both CM and Oiseau have reminded us the potential catchment area is enormous, attracting many new fans in the city and hinterland but also committed treizistes from much further afield as far as the Pyrenees, and the treiziste areas of the Aude. whislt the strong developing area of the Tarn is even closer.
A professional French SL is such a non-starter. I hope now that the RFL/SL will finally grasp the benefits for all this can bring. A Toulouse presence in Super League will greatly enhance the profile of RL in France, benefitting not only the Elite, the Catalan Dragons and the French national team, but grassroots RL all over this vast country. That media interest at a national level is not there, despite the progress that has been made with such as L'Equipe. It is that enhanced profile that will bring more into the sport, whether more young players, an alternative pro pathway to the Dragons, but also business interest.
I felt that Toulouse were let down by the previous Chair of the Federation, who meekly seemed to have accepted the ludicrous offer of a place in the Championship. Toulouse had little choice to accept but it was a "poisoned chalice". Because of his background the new Chair of the Federation has pushed the case for a second SL club in France very hard. But despite the odd jibe to the contrary it will be the whole of French RL that will benefit from a second French club, i.e. Toulouse. The Elite is currently in a pickle, certainly with next season looking worrying. But a Toulouse presence in SL will also be a boost to those clubs waiting in the wings to enter the Elite in 2014-15, namely Lyon, Bordeaux and a Tarn club. Finally if the decision makers and marketing people at the RFL and SLE can't make something of the marketing opportunity of a more credible SL Europe, thanks to a Toulouse presence then I give up. But please listen to CM and Oiseau on this issue.

Edited by Cliff Spracklen, 11 June 2013 - 01:32 PM.


#140 The Parksider

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 10:23 AM

Whatever the current status, activity of the licencing committee, or the state of play in the restructure proposals the nettle needs to be firmly and decisively grasped on the acceptance of Toulouse into Super League. Fortunately it appears that decision is not too far away. Both Canetman, who really is on the ground and knows personally many of the key players in French RL and Oiseau who also has an "on the ground" sense of what Toulouse means in terms of it's position as a potential major player in French sport, are both absolutely spot on. If Toulouse are not given the green light soon a major opportunity for the sport will be lost. Concerns about how many actual RL fans there are currently on the ground in the city is an irrelevance. Equally the presence of strong RU and football clubs in the city is equally not a hindrance to the prospects for a Super League club, but positively an indicator that this affluent, young, vital city will support any high profile successful operation, as will the local wealthy Mairie and other public and commercial organisations, which proliferate in the area.
And as both CM and Oiseau have reminded us the potential catchment area is enormous, attracting many new fans in the city and hinterland but also committed treizistes from much further afield as far as the Pyrenees, and the treiziste areas of the Aude. whislt the strong developing area of the Tarn is even closer.
A professional French much harder. I hope now that the RFLSL is such a non-starter. A Toulouse presence in Super League will greatly enhance the profile of RL in France, benefitting not only the Elite, the Ctalan Dragons and the French national team, but grassroots RL all over this vast country. That media interest at a national level is not there, despite the progress that has been made with such as L'Equipe. It is that enhanced profile that will bring more into the sport, whether more young players, an alternative pro pathway to the Dragons, but also business interest.
I felt that Toulouse were let down by the previous Chair of the Federation, who meekly seemed to have accepted the ludicrous offer of a place in the Championship. Toulouse had little choice to accept but it was a "poisoned chalice". Because of his background the new Chair of the Federation has pushed the case for a second SL club in France very hard. But despite the odd jibe to the contrary it will be the whole of French RL that will benefit from a second French club, i.e. Toulouse. The Elite is currently in a pickle, certainly with next season looking worrying. But a Toulouse presence in SL will also be a boost to those clubs waiting in the wings to enter the Elite in 2014-15, namely Lyon, Bordeaux and a Tarn club. Finally if the decision makers and marketing people at the RFL and SLE can't make something of the marketing opportunity of a more credible SL Europe, thanks to a Toulouse presence then I give up. But please listen to CM and Oiseau on this issue.

I'd rather listen to you, but Canetman has been a breath of fresh air.

Big thanks for a superb post from the expert.....




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