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Is dual-registration the future in the NCL?


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#1 jaguar

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Posted 07 June 2013 - 06:17 PM

I certainly hope not! What are the thoughts of the NCL Clubs? (Not really interested in non-NCL clubs just at the moment).

Is it a step too far do you think?

#2 TaxiEgg

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Posted 07 June 2013 - 07:18 PM

Its  going to happen.



#3 thestatman

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Posted 07 June 2013 - 09:17 PM

If it happens it will have to be very limited and on the NCL's clubs terms. Strictly limited to academy aged players (under 19) returning to the clubs where they played junior rugby and no more than 2 in any one fixture for me.

 

This would give lads that are signed on for pro clubs but can't get game time at their pro club (or out on Dual Reg within the pro game) an opportunity to remain within the sport and not become disillusioned with it. It also provides them with a natural pathway back to the community game should the fail to gain a full time contract. 

 

Anything far beyond this would compromise the integrity of the competition and despite the rumblings of a few of the posters on here who'll have you believe that the RFL have carte blanche over what rules the RFL will force upon the NCL. I firmly believe that the integrity of the competition utmost in the mind of the NCL management committee.


SINGING MY MUM'S A .......

 

 

Views are my own and not necessarily those of Thatto Heath Crusaders!!


#4 Marauder

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Posted 07 June 2013 - 09:35 PM

No IF's about it!!

 

The only reason it has not been introduced at the moment is simply because the NCL committee and the RFL are working on the best way to dress this up so the boat doesn't get rocked more than the switch to summer has done so far.

 

Can anyone tell me which clubs have benefitted the most from the relaxed laws that has allowed junior elite player poaching?

 

Will these same clubs be singled out to become the major elite clubs within the NCL?

 

Once these major elite NCL clubs have been established will they then move into an elite semi-pro competition with the likes of Hemel, Oxford and the unlucky present  heartlands pro clubs that will not escape the league of death.

 

 

If it happens it will have to be very limited and on the NCL's clubs terms. Strictly limited to academy aged players (under 19) returning to the clubs where they played junior rugby and no more than 2 in any one fixture for me.

 

This would give lads that are signed on for pro clubs but can't get game time at their pro club (or out on Dual Reg within the pro game) an opportunity to remain within the sport and not become disillusioned with it. It also provides them with a natural pathway back to the community game should the fail to gain a full time contract. 

 

Anything far beyond this would compromise the integrity of the competition and despite the rumblings of a few of the posters on here who'll have you believe that the RFL have carte blanche over what rules the RFL will force upon the NCL. I firmly believe that the integrity of the competition utmost in the mind of the NCL management committee.


Edited by Marauder, 07 June 2013 - 09:36 PM.

Carlsberg don't do Soldiers, but if they did, they would probably be Brits.



http://www.pitchero....hornemarauders/

#5 Li0nhead

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Posted 07 June 2013 - 10:27 PM

No IF's about it!!

 

The only reason it has not been introduced at the moment is simply because the NCL committee and the RFL are working on the best way to dress this up so the boat doesn't get rocked more than the switch to summer has done so far.

 

Can anyone tell me which clubs have benefitted the most from the relaxed laws that has allowed junior elite player poaching?

 

Will these same clubs be singled out to become the major elite clubs within the NCL?

 

Once these major elite NCL clubs have been established will they then move into an elite semi-pro competition with the likes of Hemel, Oxford and the unlucky present  heartlands pro clubs that will not escape the league of death.

 

Lets say they go with this idea, what happens to the rest of the clubs?

 

The NCL is a comp where the clubs vote for changes. Say 10 clubs are targeted as these super clubs i am pretty sure the rest of the clubs in the NCL would vote this idea down or worst case situation simply reform the NCL without these super clubs and form what would still be the best armature Rugby League competition in our country. 



#6 thestatman

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Posted 07 June 2013 - 10:48 PM

Lets say they go with this idea, what happens to the rest of the clubs?

 

The NCL is a comp where the clubs vote for changes. Say 10 clubs are targeted as these super clubs i am pretty sure the rest of the clubs in the NCL would vote this idea down or worst case situation simply reform the NCL without these super clubs and form what would still be the best armature Rugby League competition in our country. 

Why would any club in the NCL at the moment want to leave what is undoubtedly the most competitive and best run league in the community/amateur game to play on an uneven playing field against clubs that have greater financial resources and the ability to pay their players. For the vast majority of the clubs in the NCL it is a struggle to break even without paying players. I struggle to see what the possible attractions are for any club to play under the fantastical new league that Marauder is suggesting.

 

Marauder's resentment towards the "major elite NCL clubs" smacks of disrespect to all of the volunteers that have put in many long and hard hours building those clubs up, just because those clubs have grown and been successful as a result of this hard work doesn't mean the people who run them have any less morals or have different ideals about the true value of amateur RL to the people at smaller or struggling clubs.


SINGING MY MUM'S A .......

 

 

Views are my own and not necessarily those of Thatto Heath Crusaders!!


#7 Marauder

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Posted 07 June 2013 - 10:53 PM

Tell me how many votes have gone against the recommendation of the NCL committee?

 

If you haven't realised the RFL have already primed the NCL and created a 3rd division which will fill the vacuum when as you say the 10 targeted teams are offered enough by the RFL. and what will be left would not be any better than the Pennine Premier.

Lets say they go with this idea, what happens to the rest of the clubs?

 

The NCL is a comp where the clubs vote for changes. Say 10 clubs are targeted as these super clubs i am pretty sure the rest of the clubs in the NCL would vote this idea down or worst case situation simply reform the NCL without these super clubs and form what would still be the best armature Rugby League competition in our country. 


Carlsberg don't do Soldiers, but if they did, they would probably be Brits.



http://www.pitchero....hornemarauders/

#8 thestatman

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Posted 07 June 2013 - 10:59 PM

Who are the 10 targeted teams? And again what have they got to gain from it? And where will the money come to fund it, because as successful as some clubs may seem from the outside essentially most NCL clubs are run in order to provide a great resource with a safe and welcoming for the local community and a desire to make ends meet when it comes to paying the bills? 


SINGING MY MUM'S A .......

 

 

Views are my own and not necessarily those of Thatto Heath Crusaders!!


#9 old papa

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Posted 07 June 2013 - 10:59 PM

I totally agree with TheStatman and Lionhead if Duel reg comes in and is not done properly it will make a mockery of the NCL league.

#10 Marauder

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Posted 07 June 2013 - 11:05 PM

Disrespect, that sounds a little harsh when I'm lead to believe your club is one of the chosen few along with St Pats, Milford Etc.

 

Can you see a pattern developing with the teams I've mentioned and who have benefitted from elite junior poaching and the people who have allowed the new rules to be deployed to allow it to happen?

 

To see disrespect of volunteers within our game you don't have to look much further than YOUR beloved RFL.

 

I'll ask you another question with regards to respect of volunteers at the smaller/pub clubs, what has the RFL done for them, everything has been geared up for the top end of the amateur game.

Why would any club in the NCL at the moment want to leave what is undoubtedly the most competitive and best run league in the community/amateur game to play on an uneven playing field against clubs that have greater financial resources and the ability to pay their players. For the vast majority of the clubs in the NCL it is a struggle to break even without paying players. I struggle to see what the possible attractions are for any club to play under the fantastical new league that Marauder is suggesting.

 

Marauder's resentment towards the "major elite NCL clubs" smacks of disrespect to all of the volunteers that have put in many long and hard hours building those clubs up, just because those clubs have grown and been successful as a result of this hard work doesn't mean the people who run them have any less morals or have different ideals about the true value of amateur RL to the people at smaller or struggling clubs.


Carlsberg don't do Soldiers, but if they did, they would probably be Brits.



http://www.pitchero....hornemarauders/

#11 Marauder

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Posted 07 June 2013 - 11:07 PM

Thin end of the wedge.

I totally agree with TheStatman and Lionhead if Duel reg comes in and is not done properly it will make a mockery of the NCL league.


Carlsberg don't do Soldiers, but if they did, they would probably be Brits.



http://www.pitchero....hornemarauders/

#12 Marauder

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Posted 07 June 2013 - 11:12 PM

I don't think it will be 10 teams that will get the offer (Lionhead said 10) It will be the ones who are benefitting from being able to poach elite juniors, the likes of Hemel, Oxford, Gloucestershire All Golds and the already pro clubs who don't make the cut when the RFL finally decided what they are going to do at the top of the game.

Who are the 10 targeted teams? And again what have they got to gain from it? And where will the money come to fund it, because as successful as some clubs may seem from the outside essentially most NCL clubs are run in order to provide a great resource with a safe and welcoming for the local community and a desire to make ends meet when it comes to paying the bills? 


Carlsberg don't do Soldiers, but if they did, they would probably be Brits.



http://www.pitchero....hornemarauders/

#13 thestatman

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Posted 07 June 2013 - 11:27 PM

Disrespect, that sounds a little harsh when I'm lead to believe your club is one of the chosen few along with St Pats, Milford Etc.

 

Can you see a pattern developing with the teams I've mentioned and who have benefitted from elite junior poaching and the people who have allowed the new rules to be deployed to allow it to happen?

 

To see disrespect of volunteers within our game you don't have to look much further than YOUR beloved RFL.

 

I'll ask you another question with regards to respect of volunteers at the smaller/pub clubs, what has the RFL done for them, everything has been geared up for the top end of the amateur game.

Your obviously more informed than everyone at these 10 clubs! You still haven't answered my question about what these "10 clubs" would have to gain. Any attempt to move into the semi pro ranks would be tantamount to financial suicide. I understand what your saying about the RFL support for the smaller clubs and pub teams but where is it wiser to concentrate resources - a pub side or a well run club that provides a safe and caring environment for the kids who are the future of the game? As far as i'm aware every club that has achieved Clubmark Gold status is afforded the same support and resources as any other club, be that within or outside of the NCL. The rules are uniform across whichever leagues you play in at whatever age group, every club has to abide by those rules.

 

Other than the (very partially subsidised) travel allowance for the NCL clubs what else have these "elite NCL clubs" been given by the RFL to set them apart from everyone else?


SINGING MY MUM'S A .......

 

 

Views are my own and not necessarily those of Thatto Heath Crusaders!!


#14 Marauder

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 12:05 AM

I'm sure I mentioned that it was Lionheart who mentioned the figure of ten clubs.

 

 Do all the junior and youth teams play for NCL clubs? (Without trawling through endless leagues and tables I can not answer that but I'd bet many belong to Pub sides)

 

 The RFL should be looking after all of the amateur game and not just the elite end and I'd also bet that a lot of pub sides are run equally as well as the NCL clubs.

 

 

Your obviously more informed than everyone at these 10 clubs! You still haven't answered my question about what these "10 clubs" would have to gain. Any attempt to move into the semi pro ranks would be tantamount to financial suicide. I understand what your saying about the RFL support for the smaller clubs and pub teams but where is it wiser to concentrate resources - a pub side or a well run club that provides a safe and caring environment for the kids who are the future of the game? As far as i'm aware every club that has achieved Clubmark Gold status is afforded the same support and resources as any other club, be that within or outside of the NCL. The rules are uniform across whichever leagues you play in at whatever age group, every club has to abide by those rules.

 

Other than the (very partially subsidised) travel allowance for the NCL clubs what else have these "elite NCL clubs" been given by the RFL to set them apart from everyone else?


Carlsberg don't do Soldiers, but if they did, they would probably be Brits.



http://www.pitchero....hornemarauders/

#15 thestatman

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 01:07 AM

I'm sure I mentioned that it was Lionheart who mentioned the figure of ten clubs.

 

 Do all the junior and youth teams play for NCL clubs? (Without trawling through endless leagues and tables I can not answer that but I'd bet many belong to Pub sides)

 

 The RFL should be looking after all of the amateur game and not just the elite end and I'd also bet that a lot of pub sides are run equally as well as the NCL clubs.

No there are many outside of the NCL that recieve exactly the same as the NCL clubs at junior level. You seem to be inferring that a pub side is anything outside of the NCL, we both know that is not the case, many regional clubs have equally as good set-ups and are afforded the same support from the RFL.

 

To me a pub side is a solely open age side that operates out of a club - St.Helens Wildboars would be the only example in St.Helens. They have no obvious desire to expand and are happy to play and progress at their chosen level for the sheer fun of it, in my view there is very much a place for these teams as it offers a place for the "social" RL player to play. That isn't to say that good teams and clubs can't grow and evolve from pub sides as many have. Every other side in St.Helens has or have actively been encouraged by Saints and their development team to set up their own youth/junior ranks. Eccleston Lions who may previously have been viewed as a "pub side" have set up a junior section. Saints were keen on them to do this as they were in a somewhat untapped area of town. Each club has been allocated a catchment area of primary schools and coaches from the community clubs are encouraged to liase with those schools and offer coaching blocks/taster sessions - obviously the bigger clubs are in a better postion to do this. No one club is given any more help than the next one. This is obviously something that Saints do well and maybe something other pro/semi-pro clubs need to improve upon but to confuse this with direct RFL support is wrong.

 

I'd like nothing more than to have three clubs in town in the NCL Premier as well as top regional sides that each have flourishing youth/junior sections as well as top open age teams, with rivalries across the age groups. For me community RL is all about building as many good clubs as possible and i'd repeat again that creating a Community game SuperLeague wouldn't benefit any of those clubs. The clubs you mention may be seen by the RFL as the standard bearers of what good community clubs should be like but conspiracy theories about break aways and elitism are away from the mark in my opinion.


SINGING MY MUM'S A .......

 

 

Views are my own and not necessarily those of Thatto Heath Crusaders!!


#16 jaguar

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 07:56 AM

(Not really interested in non-NCL clubs just at the moment).

I was hoping that with this being an NCL Forum (and not the Community Forum), and with me saying that I wasn't really interested in non-NCL clubs views at the moment, Marauder may have understood what I actually meant!! Alas no.

Ignoring Marauder - just for this post - whether or not the NCL management might "recommend" us accepting such a ruling or not - how do the NCL clubs feel about the prospect?

#17 Leighton10

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 08:44 AM

I knw u said u was only interested in ncl but I knw widnes simms cross currently have a dual reg agreement with crusaders with a few lads, seeing how tht is workin for them and the way the game is goin I think its only a matter of time b4 the rfl and ncl roll this out nationally and see a fair few teams in ncl use this to there advantage.

#18 del capo

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 09:35 AM

As Taxi Egg knows on a previous thread the NCL  Management Committee will recommend NOTHING that might  screw the integrity of the competition. Our clubs are not fools and are largely comfortable with what is delivered. Stability in an ever changing environment has it's advantages......

 

Conference South  has embraced the concept. Expect reserve sides for that comp.  in numbers next year from CC1. Just not for us but one size has never fitted all.

 

Youth and Open Age Leagues (Cumbria in particular ) have already also done so as well. When for instance Wath Brow can play ' pros ' in their reserves at Tier 4  but not their first team then the debate becomes real.

 

Statman is hitting the right issues. Clubs want their kids back. They never really left them, and maybe signed that piece of paper ( the contract ) just too soon.......

 

Sorry to differ with you Marauder but the only elitism in the NCL revolves around  who finishes top. All our members appreciate that and its their goal.

 

If the RFL have earmarked anything, then its our competition as a whole.  6 pro clubs at Academy level produce 85%of all contracted players. The NCL through its juniors produces 90% of them , either directly or through the Academies..

 

If like the RFL  you were a  business with limited resources , where would you concentrate? And if you were in charge of the raw materials ( as the NCL are to some extent ) would you really have to roll over at the next ,  maybe unproven , idea ?

 

Dual registration may have advantages , but if it happens it will be on our club's terms



#19 Marauder

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 11:06 AM

So is the integrity of the championship being screwed when Internationals are turning out for Swinton (All within the dual reg)

 

You have mentioned the Conference South has embracing the concept, that' not what I've been hearing or readings, the only two teams that seem happy are Bristol and Sheffield.

 

I'm sure there was always a pathway for young players to move back into the amateur game without discrimination, this is not the issue, like Swinton under the dual Reg agreement there would be nothing stopping Briers and Co playing in the NCL, maybe that could be seen as a positive, but at the end of the season if the games that have been dominated by dual reg players have a massive bearing on who ends at the top or bottom of a division then surely that indicates that the goals will  always be moving and create a unstable competition.

 

How many of the 90% of the 85% of contracted players produced have been poached from other clubs (Again this has been aired before and it seems to be the same clubs doing the poaching)

 

It's a fact that a few years ago the RFL wanted all service area kids to be directed to a amateur club of the local pro clubs choice, I know this because I got the phone call while at work from Doncaster RLFC apologising, at the time my club had started to run 3 junior teams and 2 open aged teams all from a pub, what happened next was the service area kids where told to go and play for Doncaster Toll Bar because they would stand a better chance of becoming a professional player, we lost the junior sides because of the lack of numbers, this has left a void in our production line but instead of throwing the towel in we've taken up the mantle and taken on board one of the development officers made redundant by the RFL who is now delivering coaching into local primary schools.

 

Your last couple of statements indicate to me that you don't give two hoots about the rest of the amateur game (shame as you sit on the community board) and the dual registration deal has already been done with the exceptions of crossing the `T's` and doting the `I's`

 

 

 

As Taxi Egg knows on a previous thread the NCL  Management Committee will recommend NOTHING that might  screw the integrity of the competition. Our clubs are not fools and are largely comfortable with what is delivered. Stability in an ever changing environment has it's advantages......

 

Conference South  has embraced the concept. Expect reserve sides for that comp.  in numbers next year from CC1. Just not for us but one size has never fitted all.

 

Youth and Open Age Leagues (Cumbria in particular ) have already also done so as well. When for instance Wath Brow can play ' pros ' in their reserves at Tier 4  but not their first team then the debate becomes real.

 

Statman is hitting the right issues. Clubs want their kids back. They never really left them, and maybe signed that piece of paper ( the contract ) just too soon.......

 

Sorry to differ with you Marauder but the only elitism in the NCL revolves around  who finishes top. All our members appreciate that and its their goal.

 

If the RFL have earmarked anything, then its our competition as a whole.  6 pro clubs at Academy level produce 85%of all contracted players. The NCL through its juniors produces 90% of them , either directly or through the Academies..

 

If like the RFL  you were a  business with limited resources , where would you concentrate? And if you were in charge of the raw materials ( as the NCL are to some extent ) would you really have to roll over at the next ,  maybe unproven , idea ?

 

Dual registration may have advantages , but if it happens it will be on our club's terms


Carlsberg don't do Soldiers, but if they did, they would probably be Brits.



http://www.pitchero....hornemarauders/

#20 Marauder

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 11:10 AM

Sorry mate but clubs will jump at it simply because human nature will kick in and the fear (Same fear that drove the exodus to summer) of being left behind will see it implemented.

I was hoping that with this being an NCL Forum (and not the Community Forum), and with me saying that I wasn't really interested in non-NCL clubs views at the moment, Marauder may have understood what I actually meant!! Alas no.

Ignoring Marauder - just for this post - whether or not the NCL management might "recommend" us accepting such a ruling or not - how do the NCL clubs feel about the prospect?


Carlsberg don't do Soldiers, but if they did, they would probably be Brits.



http://www.pitchero....hornemarauders/




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