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French RL Elite One at crisis point


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#21 The Parksider

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 05:58 AM

Albi should be in elite decent city size and league stronghold.

If SL goes on to develop as an anglo french comp who next?

#22 Larry the Leit

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 09:06 AM

Albi should be in elite decent city size and league stronghold.

 

Again I don't see it as a stronghold, but it has a presence.

 

In terms of playing strength at junior level they used (may still be) to be partnered/run exchanges and hold competitive matches with Stanley Rangers, one of the many amateur clubs in Wakefield.  Similarly Toulouse had (may still have for all I know) pretty much the same twinning with Dewsbury Moor, one of the many amateur clubs in the Heavy Woollen district.

 

One issue for me is that even in what here consider to be the French strongholds the professional clubs are not supported by a network of lots of amateur clubs in their immediate area.


The Unicorn is not a Goose,

#23 oiseau

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 09:33 AM

One issue for me is that even in what here consider to be the French strongholds the professional clubs are not supported by a network of lots of amateur clubs in their immediate area.

 

wrong - everything is relative, you say 'immediate area' well France is a big country compared to England and the french heartlands covers a vast area again, compared to England

as Catalan is the lone french  SL represenative every other LER team is effectively a feeder club so if/when Toulouse joins the SL ranks then all the  LER clubs will be feeding two SL clubs



#24 zorquif

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 09:40 AM

See, this is what I worry about with Toulouse. The Marie (?) will supposedly be big funders for Toulouse in SL. But is there a contract, a guaranteed level of funding for x years? Otherwise who can say that the next Mayor won't pull the plug or somesuch?

 

Furthermore, there's a dispute between the local Mayor (who has been a big supporter of the club) and his deputy, which is putting the level of funding the club is used to in extreme jeopardy.



#25 Larry the Leit

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 10:09 AM

wrong - everything is relative, you say 'immediate area' well France is a big country compared to England and the french heartlands covers a vast area again, compared to England

as Catalan is the lone french  SL represenative every other LER team is effectively a feeder club so if/when Toulouse joins the SL ranks then all the  LER clubs will be feeding two SL clubs

 

Maybe, but my point is that every semi-pro rugby league club in England is supported by a network of amateur clubs.  In France it would appear that Albi as a City is represented by one semi-pro club and no other amateur clubs.  If it were ever to make the grade (and I'm using it at an theoretical example as I have no grasp on how big they are these days) and have SL ambitions, it's supporting network will be the other semi-pro clubs rather than a local network of junior clubs providing a conveyer belt of young players.

 

Again, I may be wrong, but my impression of both Toulouse and Albi is that they are one club cities, and that in French RL there is no real equivalent of the Pennine League, the Yorkshire League, the Cumbrian League, NL3, conferences etc.  


Edited by Larry the Leit, 11 June 2013 - 10:09 AM.

The Unicorn is not a Goose,

#26 The Parksider

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 10:20 AM

See, this is what I worry about with Toulouse. The Marie (?) will supposedly be big funders for Toulouse in SL. But is there a contract, a guaranteed level of funding for x years? Otherwise who can say that the next Mayor won't pull the plug or somesuch?

Who can say Neil Hudgell, Jack Fulton or Jack Wilkinson will not pull the plug on funding mid license.

ME - because they did, so again why should Toulouse have to contractually provide funding and M62 clubs get in on a (clearly empty) promise??

Is it cos they is Frenchies?

#27 zorquif

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 11:09 AM

The idea is to put toulouse in SL to improve something. I think this is between a) the general image of the game, B) to bring in multinational sponsorship and c) improve the french game. I think I covered it there. To bring them in will likely mean sacrificing another team from SL. If Toulouse come in on a bunch of promises and then bail, none of this will be acheived, but we will have upset thousands(?) of fans from the 'heartlands'. I would like Toulouse to be in SL, but I think that if anything, the requirements should be more stringent as it will be at the expense of a club that has been part of English RL for many years.

 

Also I think that the failure of a 'forced' expansion team is more detrimental to RL than an M62 club. It reeks of desperation to those on the outside looking in. Maybe you are right though - maybe the RL should insist on contractual obligations for all teams purporting to be financially viable due to donations.

 

Nonetheless, can you clarify a couple of things for me - do NH, JF and JW all have financial considerations in their respective clubs? If so, stopping funding/selling up has a direct financial impact on them. They have already pumped plenty of their own money into the clubs. They clearly didn't get into it for a laugh. However, if the Marie decides to stop funding the RL team at the expense of (lets say) the local handball team, what impact does that have on the decision makers there?

 

As such, I don't think that comparing private funding to public funding is comparing apples with apples, is it?

 

Finally, I hope your last question is tongue in cheek - it's pretty offensive if you ask me.



#28 The Parksider

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 01:55 PM

1. The idea is to put toulouse in SL to improve something. To bring them in will likely mean sacrificing another team from SL. I would like Toulouse to be in SL, but I think that if anything, the requirements should be more stringent as it will be at the expense of a club that has been part of English RL for many years.
 
2. I don't think that comparing private funding to public funding is comparing apples with apples, is it?
 
3. Finally, I hope your last question is tongue in cheek - it's pretty offensive if you ask me.

1.You forget good sir that it is an European Super league and is not designed for heartland clubs and traditional fans.

I'm as cheesed off with the people who made a mess of Paris, Gatehead and Crusaders as made a mess of Oldham, Halifax and Workington.

2. Clubs can fund their businesses the normal way or be propped up. IMHO props are props whether open or blind side

3. Firmly tongue in cheek, but just ask for an edit and public apolgy if you have the slightest of doubt.

#29 oiseau

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 02:42 PM

Maybe, but my point is that every semi-pro rugby league club in England is supported by a network of amateur clubs.  In France it would appear that Albi as a City is represented by one semi-pro club and no other amateur clubs.  If it were ever to make the grade (and I'm using it at an theoretical example as I have no grasp on how big they are these days) and have SL ambitions, it's supporting network will be the other semi-pro clubs rather than a local network of junior clubs providing a conveyer belt of young players.

 

Again, I may be wrong, but my impression of both Toulouse and Albi is that they are one club cities, and that in French RL there is no real equivalent of the Pennine League, the Yorkshire League, the Cumbrian League, NL3, conferences etc.  

you are quite right sir - the problem with english sorry, british fans is that they invariably fail to understand that France is not England and the whole demography, way of life and social structure etc etc is different, not better or worse, just different

Albi area does have an equivalent structure with clubs like Villefranche d'Albi, Lescure Valderies & Réalmont plus others in the lower league acting as feeder clubs and Toulouse have the Broncos, Ramonville, Sauveterre & St Gaudens plus others as feeder clubs from the lower leagues

The population density in these areas is relatively sparse compared to the congested english rl heartlands - you can't compare the two just take each  case individually



#30 zorquif

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 03:50 PM

No problemo. I'll be less mard next time.

It's not about keeping it for the heartlands. I'm not from the heartlands and nor do I live there so it'd benefit me for there to be good expansion. However, I fear that more expansion clubs falling makes us look even worse than the m62 clubs. Unfortunately the latter appears to be the status quo whereas the former actually tales the game further backwards

1.You forget good sir that it is an European Super league and is not designed for heartland clubs and traditional fans.

I'm as cheesed off with the people who made a mess of Paris, Gatehead and Crusaders as made a mess of Oldham, Halifax and Workington.

2. Clubs can fund their businesses the normal way or be propped up. IMHO props are props whether open or blind side

3. Firmly tongue in cheek, but just ask for an edit and public apolgy if you have the slightest of doubt.


Edited by zorquif, 11 June 2013 - 03:53 PM.


#31 oiseau

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 06:39 PM

See, this is what I worry about with Toulouse. The Marie (?) will supposedly be big funders for Toulouse in SL. But is there a contract, a guaranteed level of funding for x years? Otherwise who can say that the next Mayor won't pull the plug or somesuch?

Funding for the ESL won't be coming from the city council - they own the Stade Arnauné so it is their decision to refurbish the stadium or not. They obviously want some confirmation that they are not wasting taxpayers money for nowt so they are awaiting the ESL decision, which is quite understandable. Their remit is to renovate the stadium in order to take 10K speccies, no more and no less. Any other funding will come from local and international sponsorship, tv deal with the Catalans and club iniatives to raise money. The Mairie can't 'pull the plug' except if TO13 are unable to pay the rent, one would assume.



#32 The Parksider

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 05:17 AM

It's not about keeping it for the heartlands. I'm not from the heartlands and nor do I live there so it'd benefit me for there to be good expansion. However, I fear that more expansion clubs falling makes us look even worse than the m62 clubs. Unfortunately the latter appears to be the status quo whereas the former actually tales the game further backwards

I'm not sure of your point. We have had Paris fail, Sheffield fail, Gateshead fail, Celtic Crusaders fail, London are set to fail.

At the end of the day those in the game and those interested in the game will feel a sense of failure and see these things as a blow. The tens of millions of people not interested in the game, not watching or listening to our troubles won't care a hoot, and wouldn't even know "expansion" is failing so I am at a loss to see how these things are a disadvantage to the game.

There is an argument that we should not put certain clubs on telly because their half empty grounds "makes us look bad". Again I don't see how this matters, at least not anywhere as much as making the right decisions for the game.

You talk about the "heartlands" and "expansion". Rugby League has been about both northern england and southern france since the 1930's, the two countries played test matches and competed in the World Cup many times, the European Super League is not expanding into new places for the game by admitting Catalans who succeeded because the game was already established in southern France. Likewise Toulouse isn't "expansion" and the conditions for failure that existed in places like wales and the north east are not the conditions Toulouse will enter under.

Indeed in 1996 Toulouse were planned as being original entrants to the Superleague, they're a traditional club who have been waiting/knocking on the door for 17 years, just like Featherstone Rovers, and I am of the strong opinion we should recognise this and stop making unfair distinctions, especially where Toulouse can enter if they deposit a few million with the RFL, whilst Faisal Nahaboo can promise to bankroll Featherstone.

Both are very keen to come into SL and give it new life. Beggars can't be choosers.

#33 audois

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 06:13 PM

Well Pia have gone. Only rugby league at Stade Ambert next season will be I understand the Pia Baroudeurs who play in N1. Carcassonne have picked up skipper Max Greseque & prop Ben Vaeau & talk of French internationai wing Clement Soubayras. Cyril Stacul to Lezignan & other former Dragons Andrew & Kane Bentley to Toulouse the latter will spend the off season at Dewsbury. Its a pity this pair didn't put their hands up earlier when Toulouse were in the Championship; they could have made a difference.Still better late than never.

Fed President Zalduendo has indicated that they will not run with an Elite 1 of just eight travellers; they talking now of two pools of 6 or 8 starting in September. Look like first group will be Carcassonne, Lezignan, Limoux, Avignon, St Esteve & Toulouse & second with Villeneuve, Palau & four others yet to be announced. Could be from Tonneins, Baho, Lyon, Albi, Cavaillon, St Gaudens. May be they're looking at each pool playing home & away and then just one game against each of the other pool giving possible 16 games. It gives the comp a wider foot print much needed but not sure whether the gap between the two will be too big.

Edited by audois, 15 June 2013 - 06:20 PM.

si tu (remi casty) devais envoyer un fax au president guasch?
"Un grand bravo pour tout ce que vous avez fait, et merci de m'avoir embarqué dans cette aventure."


"Just as we had been Cathars, we were treizistes, men apart."
Jean Roque, Calendrier-revue du Racing-Club Albigeois, 1958-1959


"It involves matters much greater than drafting the new rules...the original and existing games have their own powerful appeal to their players and public and have the sentiments which history inspires"
Harold 'Jersey' Flegg 1933

#34 zorquif

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 07:33 PM

Ah, fair enough. I seem to recall other posters suggesting that a great deal of the funding would come from the Marie. My mistake.

Funding for the ESL won't be coming from the city council - they own the Stade Arnauné so it is their decision to refurbish the stadium or not. They obviously want some confirmation that they are not wasting taxpayers money for nowt so they are awaiting the ESL decision, which is quite understandable. Their remit is to renovate the stadium in order to take 10K speccies, no more and no less. Any other funding will come from local and international sponsorship, tv deal with the Catalans and club iniatives to raise money. The Mairie can't 'pull the plug' except if TO13 are unable to pay the rent, one would assume.



#35 thirteenthman

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Posted 16 June 2013 - 01:41 PM

Well Pia have gone. Only rugby league at Stade Ambert next season will be I understand the Pia Baroudeurs who play in N1. Carcassonne have picked up skipper Max Greseque & prop Ben Vaeau & talk of French internationai wing Clement Soubayras. Cyril Stacul to Lezignan & other former Dragons Andrew & Kane Bentley to Toulouse the latter will spend the off season at Dewsbury. Its a pity this pair didn't put their hands up earlier when Toulouse were in the Championship; they could have made a difference.Still better late than never.

Fed President Zalduendo has indicated that they will not run with an Elite 1 of just eight travellers; they talking now of two pools of 6 or 8 starting in September. Look like first group will be Carcassonne, Lezignan, Limoux, Avignon, St Esteve & Toulouse & second with Villeneuve, Palau & four others yet to be announced. Could be from Tonneins, Baho, Lyon, Albi, Cavaillon, St Gaudens. May be they're looking at each pool playing home & away and then just one game against each of the other pool giving possible 16 games. It gives the comp a wider foot print much needed but not sure whether the gap between the two will be too big.

 

Thanks for the update. Hard to comprehend the champions of a league not taking part the following season.

 

Interesting to see how they set things up for next season.



#36 thirteenthman

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Posted 16 June 2013 - 01:57 PM

  
I have always thought it was amazing that FRL could produce so many talented players given the fact that it was under constant pressure, outside of the maire and a few local sponsors there has NEVER been any income from TV or major corporations.
 

 

Too true. It's amazing to think what could be achieved if they had the resources.



#37 audois

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Posted 16 June 2013 - 03:19 PM

Lyon may or may not be there in September but they've just organsied their most successful challenge petit treize for primary schools in the city. 1400 took part. Bravo les Gones!
Panorama-desparticipants2013PhotoPaisse_
si tu (remi casty) devais envoyer un fax au president guasch?
"Un grand bravo pour tout ce que vous avez fait, et merci de m'avoir embarqué dans cette aventure."


"Just as we had been Cathars, we were treizistes, men apart."
Jean Roque, Calendrier-revue du Racing-Club Albigeois, 1958-1959


"It involves matters much greater than drafting the new rules...the original and existing games have their own powerful appeal to their players and public and have the sentiments which history inspires"
Harold 'Jersey' Flegg 1933

#38 Lobbygobbler

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Posted 16 June 2013 - 04:25 PM

Why isnt there standards based promotion from the Elite 1 to SL in 2015 and then again in 2017? This would allow clubs to challenge Toulouse for the right and make it more exciting

#39 The Parksider

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 05:56 AM

Never has there been a time in the history of RL than now that we need to have more french involvement in SL THEY NEED IT AND WE NEED IT TO:))))

CM

You keep posting old lad, especially as you now have the Spracklen seal of approval.

#40 Cliff Spracklen

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 08:45 AM

One hopes all will be OK however from what i am hearing its reached crises point and at least 2 other clubs are on the verge:)

I have always thought it was amazing that FRL could produce so many talented players given the fact that it was under constant pressure, outside of the maire and a few local sponsors there has NEVER been any income from TV or major corporations.

Never has there been a time in the history of RL than now that we need to have more french involvement in SL THEY NEED IT AND WE NEED IT TO:))))

CM

ABSOLUTELY AGREE!