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London Broncos time to be very afraid


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#121 Larry the Leit

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 02:52 PM

Some good points raised on here about the damage that London may be doing. 

 

Is there any light at the end of the tunnel?


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#122 Larry the Leit

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 02:53 PM

There was over 3k in the ground, but the only noise seemed to come from a few disaffected Broncos supporters, who spent the entire afternoon shouting abuse at their own players

 

Did one of them have a yellow rosette on?


The Unicorn is not a Goose,

#123 gingerjon

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 03:31 PM

I thought the whole point was that there is a strong amateur rugby league community in London that brings players through. If that is the case what is the difference between the situation of Cumbria without a SL club and London without a L club, possiby.

 

On the travel times, a minor point I think, but Cumbria to west Yorkshire must be a 3.5 hour journey athe least. Its probably quicker to get to London

 

The amateur situation in (parts of) Cumbria is comparable to that in parts of the M62 corridor, that in London is not and is unlikely ever to be so.

 

And, to be fair to me(!), I have said many times both that the idea of a Cumbrian SL team should be properly explored & that Cumbria as a rep team should get more games. I'd love to see Cumbria v England (18-18 last time) become a more regular thing and matches v tourists.


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#124 gingerjon

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 03:32 PM

, who spent the entire afternoon shouting abuse at their own players

Balls.

 

It can't have been the entire afternoon as that wouldn't have given time for us to get the cans of VB in.


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#125 jaybs

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 03:49 PM

Go back to those early days at Fulham RL Club and the atmosphere at matches was amazing, the game was built quickly around a community and based around families. It was always my claim that when the London club had to leave Craven Cottage the RFL should have stepped in and assisted the club in finding and buying its own land and building a ground, one that would have become the London HQ for London and RL in the south. I'm sure people will claim why help London? then why help Bradford in buying Odsal? should we allow all clubs to just fade away? Why were Hull with Gateshead and Huddersfield Giants with Sheffield Eagles allowed to keep their places?

 

The work currently with London Academy players is really now starting to produce rich fruits, with Northern Clubs currently looking at Sarginson, Chubb, Channing and Dixon, it would be disappointing if the RFL allow the club to fold or leave Super League, London give many of the young players scholarships allowing them to be trained and continue some college education.

 

Remember that it was only 1980 that Fulham was formed, just 33 years ago, many Northern established clubs are over 100 years and attract under 10,000 supporters, in fact there are only a handful of clubs that command 10,000 plus, Huddersfield Giants even with their last few years of success can't attract major crowds and this is the home of Rugby League. Many have pointed out how well Crusaders are doing, well what about Sheffield Eagles who attract much larger crowds than many well established clubs in the North and Cumbria.

 

The RFL must take much blame for the failure with a lot wrong in the game today especially London and the same people who have governed over the period, no major sponsors etc are looking at the future of the game, would any major corporate company act in this way?

 

I just hope what Stevo may have tried cleverly to indicate he is in the know about London is once again wrong! We need new young blood now to take over the running of the game with fresh ideas otherwise we will end up going back to being a semi-pro game once again.



#126 foozler

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 04:05 PM

How many generations back can you go on the family links ruling for visas?

 

Given the origin of a large % of the US population, I would think there'd be a few college athletes who could qualify?

 

 

I did follow that little almost-adventure.  I got a little thrill from union being riven by splits and idiot ideas in a way that league normally is.  However I did think that scouting NCAA athletes through combines was a pretty smart move.  Obviously if we were doing it for British RL we'd need to check they have a granny in Bratislava so they can get an EU passport as they'd never get a visa otherwise.



#127 foozler

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 04:15 PM

Go back to those early days at Fulham RL Club and the atmosphere at matches was amazing, the game was built quickly around a community and based around families. It was always my claim that when the London club had to leave Craven Cottage the RFL should have stepped in and assisted the club in finding and buying its own land and building a ground, one that would have become the London HQ for London and RL in the south. I'm sure people will claim why help London? then why help Bradford in buying Odsal? should we allow all clubs to just fade away? Why were Hull with Gateshead and Huddersfield Giants with Sheffield Eagles allowed to keep their places?

 

The work currently with London Academy players is really now starting to produce rich fruits, with Northern Clubs currently looking at Sarginson, Chubb, Channing and Dixon, it would be disappointing if the RFL allow the club to fold or leave Super League, London give many of the young players scholarships allowing them to be trained and continue some college education.

 

Remember that it was only 1980 that Fulham was formed, just 33 years ago, many Northern established clubs are over 100 years and attract under 10,000 supporters, in fact there are only a handful of clubs that command 10,000 plus, Huddersfield Giants even with their last few years of success can't attract major crowds and this is the home of Rugby League. Many have pointed out how well Crusaders are doing, well what about Sheffield Eagles who attract much larger crowds than many well established clubs in the North and Cumbria.

 

The RFL must take much blame for the failure with a lot wrong in the game today especially London and the same people who have governed over the period, no major sponsors etc are looking at the future of the game, would any major corporate company act in this way?

 

I just hope what Stevo may have tried cleverly to indicate he is in the know about London is once again wrong! We need new young blood now to take over the running of the game with fresh ideas otherwise we will end up going back to being a semi-pro game once again.

 

I'm not sure too much blame for the situation at London Bronquins can be laid at the door of Red Hall, just like they can't take too much blame for the situations that evolved at Salford, Bradford or Wakefield over the last few years. If club owners don't know their backside from their elbow when it comes to running a business, is it really the RFL's responsibility to step in and take over? Personally I think not.

 

Fact is, neither the current coach nor the previous coach should have been appointed at the Broncos. When McDermott left for Leeds, London needed to hire a proper coach, as it was the club decided to go with a guy who was a rookie. When they finally got round to moving him on, they went for a guy who had previously done the job and hardly set the world alight. On field they are very poor, and seem just as poor off field.



#128 foozler

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 04:16 PM

I was thinking that the other day.

 

Yeah but no but, you see the thing was that Salford have low crowds too and anyway my mate Dave reckons that no club has ever grown organically....

 

 

I was thinking that the other day.

 

Yeah but no but, you see the thing was that Salford have low crowds too and anyway my mate Dave reckons that no club has ever grown organically....

 

Like whatever.

 

Am I?



#129 foozler

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 04:20 PM

 Yes. I think you've made this point before, and sadly I am in agreement with you that having a proper strategy for events in London would be better than a team pulling in 2k 13 times a year.

 

If you want to raise the profile of RL in the national consciousness, then more events in London is certainly one way to go about it.

 

I think once the deal with Man City runs out, the RFL should seriously consider taking Magic to Wembley. What better way to increase exposure of the game to suvveners than having all 14/ 13/ 12 sides (delete as applicable) competing in the capital on the same weekend.

 

And no, it wouldn't devalue having the Cup Final at Wembley. After all, Wembley is the national stadium for RL, well the Wembley management seem to think so given they are having an RL statue built there.



#130 THE RED ROOSTER

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 05:18 PM

I cannot plough through this thread but for the record.

 

Sadly the vast majority of London Public that Stevo talks about don't even know a RL club exists in London. There in lies one of the problems.

 

The majority of the public down here cannot differentiate between the two codes of "Rugby" in my experience.

 

How do you know that Stevo is 'very well informed' about the London club?  All it sounded like to me was his usual bluster.  His phrasing suggested speculation is all he was indulging in. .

 

Hughes said in public at the last round of licences that he would only guarantee his support of London until the end of this licensing period.  I think it would be more worthwhile awaiting his decision rather than listening to Stevo's garbage.

 

Mike Stevenson resides in London during the week IIRC. He is seen infrequently at Broncos games, and is a personal friend of David Hughes. He also played matchmaker when Ian Lenagan took over the club by arraging the meet between him and David Hughes as recounted in the book A Pastel Revolution (pages 74-76). His mate David also gives him exclusives to help him look sage as a RL pundit to the extent that the decision to quit the Stoop was announced on Friday night SKY TV contradicting a statement from his very own CEO that night. He also almost leaked news of Tony Rea's reappointment as coach.

 

And I have always felt that a final announcement on the club's future will be made in the SKY TV studio at around 7.30pm on Monday 5th August ;)

 

Anyone who watches London Broncos has many a dark night of the soul but for David Hughes at night he must lie awake and ponder not just the poor decisions he has made as chairman, not least financially stretching himself - for he is not that wealthy a man -  to give the club the worst team that money can buy. Something hinted at by Brian Noble on Monday's telecast when he talked of two teams that showed you cannot buy success. He must also ponder the eye watering amount of money spent absorbing the club's debts and the family pressure about the legacy his family will get due to this level of spending sustained over a number of years and going upwards.

 

Given next season will be a struggle to preserve Super League status involving yet another move to a new ground and sniffer Rea having to clean the augean stable that is the club's current playing staff. He must wonder - Is it worth it ?

 

He would indeed sell up the club to a Consortium or a Marwan Koukach style figure, this much is true, just pick up the 'phone and call.

 

On RL Backchat before being talked over Danny Lockwood hit the nail on the head - No-one coming to Gillingham is going to be watching Rugby League after the home side loses 10-82. This is not a new thing but has been going on since mid - 2009. C*ap teams get c*ap crowds that is an iron rule of sport.

 

I have to say it really does cloud your outlook to the game, I have two great loves Cricket and Rugby League, the latter a sport rapidly going down the gurgler in the Northern Hemisphere. I am seriously cheesed off to put it politely with developments not just with my club but the game in general and the amount of journeys I have made up to the North to watch the game - outside of London home games - has tailed off in the last few years. It's really hard going watching the Broncos and I think a lot of the remaining hard core basicaly will not renew season tickets next year if all that is on offer is more of the same and that must be a consideration.David Hughes takes into account.

 

Judging by Andy Wilson's comments on Backchat, he reads this forum and that's where he gets his views from... ;)

All we've learnt over the past 3 decades is that those people in London who know that the Broncos exist won't come out to support a very badly run club. To simply say the London public don't want a SL team is wrong.

 

Absolutely correct, the club is textbook in how not to run a sporting club.

 

It's all been said on here a thousand times already; some people think a top-flight London club is important for the game, some people don't. None of us can say definitively one way or another, but I guess we'll find out in the years to come.

 

What I do know for certain is the following:

1) that a London club in the Championship will never, ever grow strong enough to gain promotion to SL and then stay there. We tried doing that through the 1980's and 90's and it never once looked like working.

2) having a championship club down here with an RFL-backed Academy will do nothing for this club, but may provide one or two players for northern clubs, and will undoubtedly become a finishing school for RU clubs.

3) whatever polite noises people make publicly on here, there will be many, many self-righteous, parochial, small-minded northerners celebrating the demise of this club.

 

Those three things I can absolutely guarantee.

 

Spot on, London Skolars dispel the championship myth. I practice "tough love" to the Skolars on this forum for as a club on the field they should be doing so much better with this year a collossal disappointment.

 

An as for the academy, I remember Brian McDermott hailing the decision of Dan Sarginson to opt for a career in Rugby League as opposed to going with the rest of his mates to Saracens at a Fan forum. Because the majority of young players chose a career in Union over League The same reasons that mitigate against Northern based players coming down south applies in reverse here, why go up north and abandon your family support network when you can stay down south in a higher profile sport.

 

On part 1, I've said it but not that bluntly.  Rugby league in Britain, forget France for the moment, without a SL side further south than Warrington (soft southerners that they are) would be very damaging to the sport as a professional image.  If it were me, I'd be going out of my way to save London, if it's good enough for the RFL to buy Odsal then it's good enough for them to go out of their way to support London.  Rugby league won't die without London, Sky won't abandon us, but it will be that bit more difficult to persuade people that we're credible.  Sky couldn't care about how much we develop France, it adds nothing to their revenues.

 

If they dropped out of SL then they'll have a very difficult time surviving.  2nd tier clubs don't attract big investments, especially if they have nothing to call "home" and have a nomad reputation of not sticking with things, rightly or wrongly.

 

On part 2, you're absolutely right.  Where's the development path for those youngsters coming through in London and the south east?  A young promising player living in London is highly unlikely to shift to up north for a chance at a moderate pay packet if they end up as one of the few on very good salaries, they could stay down south and earn the same at a middling union club.  Regardless of what some people snobbishly think of with London, they are a massive beacon (good word Viking Warrior) for youngsters in the game playing at the lower tier clubs in London and the South and it would be a painful long-term loss to the game.

 

We need a Marwan Koukach here in the South . Will Martin Sadler lead the call for a new financial backer / consortium to rescue the club in his editorial next week ?

 

Surely a partnership with a soccer club located close to a big amateur set up is the best way to grow a 'real' club in the capital. Our target market is more soccer fan than ru fan.

 

Without applying the postcode test to you, I can assure you that of the club's hardcore there are as many Union fans as Soccer fans. The fact is there is not enough of either and that's down to sport being a results based business. The challenge for the Broncos has always been not to "borrow" another sports fans in their off season but to instead create a Rugby League fanbase where fans prioritise Rugby League over Union and Soccer. No amount of marketing initatives can sell a side to the London sporting public  that gets regularily thrashed at home.


I am an oil trader and successful at that but, but marketing, finance, business management, human resources etc are not my strengths


 

 

David Hughes to Ian Lenagan Page 134 - A Pastel Revolution - Fletcher and Gordas - 2006

 

Being an outsider, it is easiest to see what is wrong with the sport. It's a fantastic sport that has been undersold and under-marketed  because people who run it probably want to keep it the way it is

 

 

Dr Marwan Koukash to Joanthan Lieu. Sunday Telegraph 9th March 2014

 

 


#131 jaybs

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 05:23 PM

I'm not sure too much blame for the situation at London Bronquins can be laid at the door of Red Hall, just like they can't take too much blame for the situations that evolved at Salford, Bradford or Wakefield over the last few years. If club owners don't know their backside from their elbow when it comes to running a business, is it really the RFL's responsibility to step in and take over? Personally I think not.

 

Fact is, neither the current coach nor the previous coach should have been appointed at the Broncos. When McDermott left for Leeds, London needed to hire a proper coach.

 

So no blame at the door of Red Hall? how about start as I stated with the lack of big money sponsorship coming into the game? how about the many promises that the RFL would invest in marketing and assist London? All I see the RFL doing is making a pigs ear of a our game, like this weekend with scrapping all Super League matches for the England V Exiles game then stage it at Warrington which has quite a small capacity, does that not show the lack of belief they can sell tickets whatever offers they may give? the list could go on and on the mess the RFL are making they seem to make decisions on the hoof!

 

How many good coaches is there in the game, we had to get rid of McDermott he could not cut it and would never take the blame, didn't he take over Leeds when they had such an all round talented team and remember along with Wigan perhaps one of the richest clubs and we only have two!

 

Rugby League and Super League need to sort out the game and not play around it with stupid ideas stolen from such as Scottish football, we need to start with the basics again with new blood who will take the game forward, but first we need a clear out of Red Hall staff at the top before anything can move forward!



#132 Methven Hornet

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 05:33 PM

I don't want to derail a Broncos thread but when we talk of P&R this fact has to be remembered when analysing the damaging effects of the yoyo syndrome. Four up four down was ridiculous. Two up two down at that time would've been far better, and solved any yoyo problems. In the end RL lurched from one extreme to the other, as is its wont.

 

Perhaps wouldn't have helped Fulham stay in Div 1 - they were third in their first season and therefore wouldn't have been promoted.


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#133 Larry the Leit

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 05:49 PM

So no blame at the door of Red Hall? how about start as I stated with the lack of big money sponsorship coming into the game? how about the many promises that the RFL would invest in marketing and assist London? All I see the RFL doing is making a pigs ear of a our game, like this weekend with scrapping all Super League matches for the England V Exiles game then stage it at Warrington which has quite a small capacity, does that not show the lack of belief they can sell tickets whatever offers they may give? the list could go on and on the mess the RFL are making they seem to make decisions on the hoof!

 

How many good coaches is there in the game, we had to get rid of McDermott he could not cut it and would never take the blame, didn't he take over Leeds when they had such an all round talented team and remember along with Wigan perhaps one of the richest clubs and we only have two!

 

The sponsorship money issue much like a lot of what you cite is a separate one, if London had their share, so would the other clubs too so the same position would be replicated.

 

Perhaps some of the consequences of getting shut of Brian McDerrmott are manifesting themselves now?  How has the group of players he left behind faired under new guardianship?


Edited by Larry the Leit, 12 June 2013 - 05:50 PM.

The Unicorn is not a Goose,

#134 foozler

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 06:05 PM

The sponsorship money issue much like a lot of what you cite is a separate one, if London had their share, so would the other clubs too so the same position would be replicated.

 

Perhaps some of the consequences of getting shut of Brian McDerrmott are manifesting themselves now?  How has the group of players he left behind faired under new guardianship?

 

Agree on the sponsorship issue. Even had the RFL got a bumper sponsorship deal with hundreds of thousands going to each club, who is to say that clubs such as Broncos, Bulls, Salford wouldn't have just wasted it? It would have just masked the rubbish management of those clubs for a while longer.

 

I grant you the RFL is at fault for a number of issues in the game, but RFL senior management cannot be held responsible for poor business decisions made by individual clubs and their owners. I include appointing Rob Powell as head coach a very poor business decision by London, likewise reappointing Tony Rea. 

 

Coming back to the sponsorship issue, it is incredibly hard to get decent wedge from corporates to sponsor sports competitions at the moment. Even the RFU, with all their commercial clout and old boys networking, have publicly stated in the last 6 months that attracting significant sponsorship monies is very difficult right now. So trying to secure decent sponsorship spend for what is really a minority sport in the UK is probably a thankless task at this moment in time.


Edited by foozler, 12 June 2013 - 06:06 PM.


#135 foozler

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 06:09 PM

So no blame at the door of Red Hall? how about start as I stated with the lack of big money sponsorship coming into the game? how about the many promises that the RFL would invest in marketing and assist London? All I see the RFL doing is making a pigs ear of a our game, like this weekend with scrapping all Super League matches for the England V Exiles game then stage it at Warrington which has quite a small capacity, does that not show the lack of belief they can sell tickets whatever offers they may give? the list could go on and on the mess the RFL are making they seem to make decisions on the hoof!

 

How many good coaches is there in the game, we had to get rid of McDermott he could not cut it and would never take the blame, didn't he take over Leeds when they had such an all round talented team and remember along with Wigan perhaps one of the richest clubs and we only have two!

 

Rugby League and Super League need to sort out the game and not play around it with stupid ideas stolen from such as Scottish football, we need to start with the basics again with new blood who will take the game forward, but first we need a clear out of Red Hall staff at the top before anything can move forward!

 

I presume the RFL will have looked at the crowds for the previous Exiles fixtures and used the historic data to inform their decision as to the required crowd capacity for this seasons fixture.

 

As for the weekend off, I believe it was generally agreed in the game that England v Exiles should be a stand alone match, with no other SL fixtures so that players were not required to back up.



#136 keighley

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 06:20 PM

Perhaps wouldn't have helped Fulham stay in Div 1 - they were third in their first season and therefore wouldn't have been promoted.

 

 

Yea and York were Champions, ahead of Wigan I might add, and still went down the next season. The scenario is still applicable. Too many were relegated



#137 Middleman

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 07:02 PM

In reality this topic should have stalled after the first Post :-

 

 

" Stevo Said on SL Backchat on Sky ...."

 

As a Salford Fan , my only surprised is  he had time over from from his usual topic:- ( Slagging off The Salford owner) to even Mention the Bronco's

 

As someone who's also heard Marwan's views on Stevo first hand , getting the two of them in the same studio may be interesting.

Anyway enough about him

 

As a casual observer of London Area RL matters it seems to me there alot of positives on the London RL scene :-

3 Semi Pro Clubs - Skolars - Hemel & Oxford

18 amateur Clubs

London is one of ther fastest growing areas for School RL  http://london.rladmi.../community_mens

and a London Area schools  got to last years years curtain raisers at Wembly CCF http://www.bucksfree...ing_to_Wembley/

http://www.thisissur...l#axzz2W1tiABLf

 

So asside from the doom & Dloom supposedly surrounding the SL team  it's not at all bad .

 

I might also point out London have a QF against Sheffield so may / should get at least a Semi Final appearance this year .

they might even pull a fast one & get a J Soward over in time for a shot at a Wembley appearance themselves ( Yes I'm being optimistic ) http://www.thesun.co...gue-switch.html


Edited by Middleman, 12 June 2013 - 07:05 PM.


#138 The Parksider

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 07:04 PM

Of course people resent what they consider unfair and unjust favouritism of other clubs. That does not mean that they don't want to see the sport that they love grow and prosper both internationally and domestically. To suggest that it does is putting two together with two and getting five. I have held a deep resentment for the way that my own club was excluded from Superleague at its advent, and then subject to some pretty rough treatment by the governing body when they seemed to be doing all they could to grow the professional game in Huddersfield.
[/size]
 
Plenty of people are labelled as flat cappers, for suggesting that clubs must grow with junior structures and amateur clubs in their areas, build their support base, prove that there is a demand etc, rather than simply be created overnight in a magical puff of smoke and hope to attract fans that will stick with them through thick of thin. If you've not spotted that trait on here, then you're either not reading as much as your post count would suggest or you have blind spot.
 
Again you use examples of clubs that have no relevence to Superleague in 2013 as examples, some from decades back. I'll tell you what, the world has changed, the misakes of the past should be learned from and avoided, and if you're going to suggest that the bulk of those clubs had sound business planning and were run as tight ships with a good solid foundation then you're again back in a dream world. The way thew were structured/setup and run has as much relevance to what we're talking about in 2013 as horses have to the modern battlefield.
 
It's quite clear what growth or otherwise some of these clubs are achieving. Again you're not making a point, merely pointing out the totally irrelevant as usual.
 
I didn't realise that you were in charge of the debate on here, and how it should be structured, your comments are your view, they are however not universal facts. Featherstone and Sheffield are building outside of Superleague, as are the new boys – why have they joined to throw money away and fail or to compete and grow in a sport that they want to be part of?
 
Probably less than about one in ten junior signings ever make it, does that mean clubs shouldn't sign any juniors on? The same can be said for expansion in and out of heartland areas, the better structured planned and marketed the better the chance of success. Just like with a junior, the harder they work and train, the more chance that their talent will shine through.
 
I really don't know if you like rugby league at all.

I asked you where the "organic" and "sustainable" growth has been, that's all I asked you and as I predicted you have gone right round the houses and failed to answer the question, finishing with pop at me.

The third tier on tiny crowds, the second tier turning into "A" teams and Hetherington said this week "in Superleague there has been a lot of cases of no growth at all and in some cases a decline.

If you can't answer the question then leave it, don't try to start another row.

#139 The Parksider

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 07:16 PM

Are you saying that the growtgh of RL in the South West, Wales, north and south, the midlands ( Coventry, leicester, Nottongham, Northampton, telford), the north east ( Durham, Northumberland) and London in the north and south east, far removed from Twickenham is because of SL and the presence of a SL club in the areas.
 
In fact the most successful expansion in many years is the present CC1 teams. Crusaders are the prime example. Hemel were founded at least 30 years ago and are now buig enough to join the semi pro ranks. They have their own ground, have recenlty built their first stand and are in a middle to upper position in their league table. This is all from their own efforts. I don't want the 122 attendance to be made a big point of either. It's early days.
 
Oxford are there. we will see how that goes. Next season Coventry will join the club building on an impressive amateur presence in the area.
 
All these are examples of organic growth. Will they morph into SL teams ever. no one knows, but they have made a start. Top down teams like Gateshead ( SL version), London ( SL version), Paris have not. Catalans can be argued as an exception to this but they are a SL team in an area which has been organically growing since the 1930s.
 
As for the other traditional clubs, you jeer at. They are still here. Many have come from the depths of near death to positions of stability. York have a new ground on the horizon, Leigh already have one, Rochdale also are safe at Spotland and running as a community and a DR club and maybe moving up. Batley are strong on the field and have a decent ground. Halifax have now a decent ground and are moving slowly towards a bid for SL . Workington and Whitehaven are emerging from near or actual death and looking at playoff places in the Championship. Even lowly Keighley have plans for a 10,000 capacity ground so let's see where that goes. Dewsbury are extending their capacity this very season.
 
I think you do all these initiatives a diservice when they are dismissed as no hopers out of hand and SL is extolled as the only way especially when the Broncos are the example. Huddersfield, Hull KR and Wakefield were the very same position as these clubs not too long ago and are now members of SL.
 
Sometimes things go in phases and growth and failure are cyclical. Lets stop condemning these smaller teams and see what happens slowly over time. i suspect, in some cases, we might all be surprised at what they can achieve.

Another right round the houses job, with accusations that I "jeer" at clubs.

The free gangway enabled amateur enthusiasts to start clubs around the country.

The question is when it comes to semi pro and pro RL where has this bottom up organic growth been since the war right up to the present day, because I can't see it as can't Hetherington in the bottom half of Superleague, It certainly isn't there in the Championships and as for CC1 small clubs trying to pay players on crowds of 122 isn't growth.

The only straw being clung onto by people who won't face reality is Crusaders are top of the C1. That one occurrence is offered as the "growth" of the game, and that's highly debatable.

If you can't answer the question don't bother coming back with woffle and accusations against me. All I am doing is asking a fair question.

#140 Larry the Leit

Larry the Leit
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Posted 12 June 2013 - 08:27 PM

I asked you where the "organic" and "sustainable" growth has been, that's all I asked you and as I predicted you have gone right round the houses and failed to answer the question, finishing with pop at me.

The third tier on tiny crowds, the second tier turning into "A" teams and Hetherington said this week "in Superleague there has been a lot of cases of no growth at all and in some cases a decline.

If you can't answer the question then leave it, don't try to start another row.


There's a certain irony in you accusing others of moving from the point, or avoiding questioning, how many of the points that I made in direct answer to your own post did you either acknowledge, make comment on or simply ignore? Much as this may pain you, other posters are not obliged by law to answer each and every one of your distracting or deviating questions. I chose to ignore your question as I thought it was pointless, surely everybody knew what was meant by “organic” growth, even if I could have perhaps used a better term.

Just to indulge you, here's what I meant in very broad terms. I think that rugby league must invest in the amateur game in an area before it throws money at the professional one with any real hope of success. It must create local competition and rivalry and regular games between clubs/teams at age groups and “put roots down” in an area. Let's take Coventry, they played their first game a few miles from my house in 2000. I know, I was there, incidently so was Ray French for some bizarre reason. He was probably there because he's interested in the game at all levels like me. They beat Worcestershire Saints (away) or the record but I don't know the score.

Their first few years were pretty low key, but it wasn't long before their ambition became clear, they didn't however have much or anything in the way of juniors and at the risk of offending some Coventry based a good chunk of their players were scavenged from union clubs and couldn't be relied upon. They had a blast at NL3, but the model wasn't really sustainable until BINGO they managed to get players to make League their first choice, had the numbers for a meaningful second team and they now have players that don't play any union, some having never played it. There have been fallings out and the usual shenanigans and partly as a result of investment by the RFL in the years when development officers in schools could be funded and definitely the Bears club there are kids in the city that love league and now have..... and wait for it..... a choice of clubs to play for. I always scoffed at the likliehood of Coventry being a base for a semi-pro and eventually pro side, but I don't anymore. The game has grown there as a direct effect of people getting to know it over a period of time, and the fantastic efforts of those people involved (mainly at the Bears, the RFL in the years they have funded the sport, and the efforts of many who I have missed out).

Let's look at their progress compared to their neighbours in Leicester, who were formed in the mid 1980s. They're not daft either, but it's not been until the last three years that they have really kicked on off the field, with juniors, ambitions around facilities, coaching, grants and partnerships in the community. Sustainable growth isn't about dumping clubs in places or indeed clubs forming and throwing thirteen lads out on to the park, it's about putting some roots down. I'd have said none of that was rocket science. I'd say that Coventry (given time) has done far more groundwork than most, including some of the new semi-pro clubs and stand a pretty good chance if they can get some depth/quality in the playing ranks.

Must you really quote Hetherington so much? He's not in charge, he's the man employed to be in charge of one club at the will of his master. He's about as far from neutral on any subject relating to the structure and strategy of our game as any other living soul. Still he's the boss of the club that you seemingly support, now that you've abandoned your beloved Hunslet. Actually thinking about it given the partnership arrangements that are in place you can now tick that Hunslet box again.

I'll say it again, I'm not even sure you like rugby league. There's little evidence from your postings on here that you do.

Edited by Larry the Leit, 12 June 2013 - 09:06 PM.

The Unicorn is not a Goose,