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London Broncos time to be very afraid


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#161 ckn

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 01:37 PM

1. With all due deference and respect to those that write for the the RL press, their opinions and research is often no better than what can be found on these very forums.  In fact there are plenty of instances of posts/views etc being directly lifted from on here.  So citing them is as silly as citing your beloved Sir G Hetherington, the Leeds employee who is not in any way impartial on any matter regarding the strategic direction or structure of the game.
 
2. All you have done is quote what we all know, the economic climate and leisure industry has changed almost beyond recognition.  You've brought nothing to the debate as normal.  I've outlined why I think Coventry have a better chance than most, and drawn a comparison with young players entering the professional game where the overwhelming majority will fail.  Guess what that's mirrored in life and business too.  How many businesses, let alone RL clubs, make it through their first year? 
 
3. There you go again crying the victim, the ever so polite and reasonable debate enthusiast that has yet again been wronged.  I'll refrain from calling you a troll, but you're certainly a pest. There is little or no evidence that you like the game that you spend so much time “debating”.

Seriously now, if you genuinely don't like his posting then do one of these three:

 

1.  Use the ignore functionality (click on the arrow next to your name top right, select "manage ignore prefs", enter his name);

2.  Use your own internal ignore functionality and don't respond; or

3.  Keep replying to him, we'll eventually get bored and lock the thread blaming both of you when we look to see if we should be going further than a warning.


Arguing with the forum trolls is like playing chess with a pigeon.  No matter how good you are, the bird will **** on the board and strut around like it won anyway


#162 keighley

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 01:55 PM

The key mistake that Parky is not to recognise that RU going open in 1995 opened up opportunities that didn't exist between 1895 and 1995. Coventry joining CC1 next year is an example of the kind of bottom-up growth that wasn't possible before 1995 so basing an argument that bottom-up growth can't deliver a SL club is foolish. We've only had 18 years where it was possible to test this theory.

 

 That's a good point and currently Crusaders, Sheffield and Hemels recent progress are all examples of the slowly, slowly approach working. the new entrants to CC1 and next season, Covenrty, will also push this envelope.



#163 keighley

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 02:08 PM

Big clubs have big bucks and sign, promote and dump more youngsters than other clubs. This isn't news.  They sign players from further and further afield, this isn't news.  They dominate the game, this isn't news to anyone.  

 

I must have dreamt the growth at Featherstone, Wakefield, Coventry, Hemel, Oxford, Bristol, Leicester etc then.  Of course the big clubs have more players graduating through their academies, they have the most money, sign the greatest number and have the best paid and resourced coaches.  Guess what, they also discard the greatest number of failures too, this has been going on for decades.  How does this advance anything in relation to this debate?  It's as obvious as day following night for all but the terminally stupid.

 

The logical conclusion to your constant rattling, is that you want a smaller number of clubs.  Well I don't.  Reduce the league to eight, and guess what you'd still end up with winners (well just one) and losers (seven), and probably two perennial strugglers.  You appear to be arguing, that if a club isn't big now then it never can be and that it should give up.

 

You appear to be arguing that new clubs are wasting their time.

 

As others have said participation is key, and that's at grass routes and junior level.  You seem to think we should all just give up.

 

I don't think you like rugby league, there little evidence of it from your postings.

 

 i wish I'd written that. Spot on. It's no good giving more and more to fewer and fewer until Wigan end up playing Wigan A and everybody else has ceased to exist.  i don't see RU or soccer advocating dumping teams so the top half dozen can play in their own little cozy ring fenced ivory courtyard. Smaller numerically is not a good fit for sports leagues. All the major US league from baseball to soccer and with the NBA and NHL in between have expanded aggressively and , despite some failures, the overall effect has been a bigger, better spread of teams and fans and increasing TV coverage as a result.

 

That RL should not try the same beggars belief.



#164 The Parksider

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 04:31 PM

Crusaders, Sheffield and Hemels recent progress are all examples of the slowly, slowly approach working.

I can't agree because as I have said Crusaders are actually a shadow of their former selves, and leading CC1 is something Hunslet did recently. Sheffield as I have said don't produce professionals even after 30 years and have one local amateur club and their crowds are down from when they re-started and hemel came into CC1 that's not growth, it's just paying your players and on 122 crowds.

Rugby league can't grow and prosper like this. Superleague is the important area to save the game.

If you disagree, and if Larry disagrees then of course let's just agree to disagree on the matter.....

#165 Saintslass

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 04:48 PM

I can't agree because as I have said Crusaders are actually a shadow of their former selves,.....

Not sure that is the case really.  They are probably now a more genuine rugby league club than they have ever been.



#166 Northern Sol

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 04:53 PM

Not sure that is the case really.  They are probably now a more genuine rugby league club than they have ever been.

Absolutely. They pay their bills, employ legal players, keep the salary cap, do well on the field and are (for CC1) well supported. What's not to like?



#167 The Parksider

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 05:13 PM

Not sure that is the case really.  They are probably now a more genuine rugby league club than they have ever been.

It's a view but it's an odd term??

#168 foozler

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 05:28 PM


Please deal with the proposal that all the growth we get is at the top clubs where the major investment is. They are the ones who develop professional players in the biggest and ever bigger numbers and attract paying fans in the biggest numbers and are our shop window.

 

 

Beyond that its decline and struggle.The future is not from the bottom up.

 

I think you are making quite a few absolute statements in what you have written there and things really are not as black and white as you make out.

 

Of course, given the history of the sport and the fact they have the top flight academies, one would expect the majority of professional player development to come from the top clubs. (The same top clubs who decided it was a good idea to bin the established comps below 1st team level and go with dual reg which really was a nonsense IMO) And of course the likes of Wigan, Leeds and Warrington are our shop window to the world.

 

A large part of decline and struggle in RL is due to changes in the way people live their lives these days, competing attractions for peoples time and money. And serious mis-management at certain historic heartlands clubs. But to say it is all struggle when you have good, continuous development and expansion of the sport into non traditional RL areas, such as Hertfordshire, Cornwall, Devon and so on actually does a great dis-service to the people who give their time and money to the sport in those areas.
 

It is highly unlikely that we will ever see a Superleague where the majority of clubs are from outside the M62 corridor, but if the likes of Hemel, Oxford or Coventry continue to be well run and gradually rise thru the levels to the Championship, they will be doing the wider sport a great service. More traditional clubs in the North need to be partnering with these junior side elsewhere in England (and Wales/ Scotland). Say what you like about Wigan, I greatly admire the way they go about their business and their link up with Wales is a very canny piece of business. I only wish Saints had got themselves a link up with an expansion club somewhere down south, and open up other pathways for talent to progress up the ranks from outside the traditional areas.



#169 Saintslass

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 06:16 PM

Absolutely. They pay their bills, employ legal players, keep the salary cap, do well on the field and are (for CC1) well supported. What's not to like?

They're also doing a lot within the community and to promote the sport generally, for example setting up a wheelchair RL team.



#170 keighley

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 06:34 PM

I can't agree because as I have said Crusaders are actually a shadow of their former selves, and leading CC1 is something Hunslet did recently. Sheffield as I have said don't produce professionals even after 30 years and have one local amateur club and their crowds are down from when they re-started and hemel came into CC1 that's not growth, it's just paying your players and on 122 crowds.

Rugby league can't grow and prosper like this. Superleague is the important area to save the game.

If you disagree, and if Larry disagrees then of course let's just agree to disagree on the matter.....

 

Crusaders are involved in their local community, they are approachong a 900 average, by far the best in their league and better than some in the league above. It looks like they will jump to the championships this year in only their third year of operation.  When they do, I bet they do better than Leeds A and they will be doing it to benefit the Crusaders not the Rhinos.

 

Sheffield have teams in Sheffield, North Derbyshire, Nottingham and Rotherham but from somewhere, on minimal money they have a dominant team which might well bust your beloved Broncos in the Cup despite all their superior SL advantages, and which is involved in serious negotiations for a new stadium built to SL criteria.

 

This has all been achieved in a few short years since they came into the league following the Shuddersfield fiasco. Their crowds need improvement but at around 1000 they are only about 50% lesss than London's and are making a profit despite paying a Champion team. If this is failure then let's all fail.

 

You are delighted by that 122 crowd at Hemel because you can drag it up ad infinitum as the gold standard for that club. Lets see what they average after a whole season or even two. They are in their first ever season. They have a junior/amateur infrastructure in the town and have had it for years. They have a ground and have, at considerable expense just built a small covered stand.  This is the progress they have made organically if you like from their foundation in a virgin league area some 30 years ago. Let's see where it goes. i would think consolidation, crowd growth and maybe promotion in the next few years would be reasonable goals.

 

Where do you see London Broncos in the next few years, maybe in the same boat as Paris, the original Crusaders and a pre four restaurants Bradford.

 

40 years ago there were no teams in Hemel, Sheffield, Wales, Oxford, Coventry, Cheltenham or White Hart Lane' How in the name of all the Rugby gods is that not growth,?

 

SL is important but it's track record of top down expansion is the Broncos, Paris and Catalans, 33% success rate then. I think the way that this lower tier approach to expansion is being done is innovative and cheap and to be pursued with vigour and we will see where it goes.

 

This does not preclude a new top down SL team as in for instance Toulouse. Both models of growth have their good and bad points but your constant dismissal of anyone not in the sainted, failing SL, is to ignore what's happening out there outside the walls of the ivory tower. If SL is the place to save the game, then the prospects are not too bright seeing as half of them are in troubled struggling orgainisations.

 

We definately do disagree and I see no agreement in sight.



#171 Larry the Leit

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 07:00 PM

40 years ago there were no teams in Hemel, Sheffield, Wales, Oxford, Coventry, Cheltenham or White Hart Lane' How in the name of all the Rugby gods is that not growth,?

 

It's worth noting that before the first world war there was at least one club in Coventry, more I think.  I'm not sure the reasons for their demise, but I'm pretty sure they're not reasons not to try again as some would.  


The Unicorn is not a Goose,

#172 Odsal Outlaw

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 07:52 PM

Sheffield have teams in Sheffield, North Derbyshire, Nottingham and Rotherham but from somewhere, on minimal money they have a dominant team which might well bust your beloved Broncos in the Cup despite all their superior SL advantages,


Where's the Sheffield team in Nottingham?
Nottingham Outlaws Rugby League
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RLC Midlands Premier Champions 2006 & 2008
East Midlands Challenge Cup Winners 2005, 2006, 2007 & 2008
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#173 Larry the Leit

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 08:12 PM

Where's the Sheffield team in Nottingham?

It always makes me laugh when people say amateur teams belong to pro teams, and then beat up the pro team for not having enough amateur teams, just in the same way they praise London for having so many.

Amateur teams are their own entities, rarely if ever formed by or in partnership with a local pro side.

Edited by Larry the Leit, 13 June 2013 - 08:12 PM.

The Unicorn is not a Goose,

#174 TheBinman

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 11:04 AM

London rugby league shoudnt b judged on how the broncos do in super league for me a better way of developing the game in London and surrounding areas is to put the money into schools, junior, amateur, community rugby looking at increasing those great figures which have dramatically improved in the recent past. Then on the back of that look at building as many sustainable London clubs for championship as
possible and build from bottom up and in time gain vital links with there local community and build a fan base that way and create match rivalries which the broncos have always sufferd with it can be done in a small cost way rather like what I've previously said spending millions every year just to keep the broncos in the super league which is clear to see that they are simply not good enough for our elite super league and arnt helping the growth of the game down south. again like I've said previously it would be fantastic if the rfl put some kind of cap reduction in place for players that come through these southern championship clubs to encourage clubs to give players full time deals because there's great talent and potential down there.
Whilst on the subject what potential areas or community clubs down in London could make the step up to champ 1 I've heard great things about Medway dragons could they be a possibility?

#175 keighley

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 02:04 PM

Where's the Sheffield team in Nottingham?

 

It;'s not a Sheffie;d team per se. The Op was intimating that there are no amateur teams available to produce players for Sheffield Eagles. In Nottingham there is the Nottingham Outlaws amateur team. Nottingham is not too far from Sheffield and Doncaster is the only other pro/semi pro team anywhere close.



#176 The Parksider

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 02:11 PM

1. I think you are making quite a few absolute statements in what you have written there and things really are not as black and white as you make out.
 
2. Of course, given the history of the sport and the fact they have the top flight academies, one would expect the majority of professional player development to come from the top clubs.
 
3.a. A large part of decline and struggle in RL is due to changes in the way people live their lives these days, competing attractions for peoples time and money. And serious mis-management at certain historic heartlands clubs.

3.b.But to say it is all struggle when you have good, continuous development and expansion of the sport into non traditional RL areas, such as Hertfordshire, Cornwall, Devon and so on actually does a great dis-service to the people who give their time and money to the sport in those areas.
 
4. It is highly unlikely that we will ever see a Superleague where the majority of clubs are from outside the M62 corridor, but if the likes of Hemel, Oxford or Coventry continue to be well run and gradually rise thru the levels to the Championship, they will be doing the wider sport a great service.

What a breath of fresh air Foozler. Someone to discuss matters sensibly with, as opposed to the middle aged cyber bullies!!

1. Maybe not, let's see?

2. I'd take your point there if the big SL academies were pinching lots of lads from amateur teams in championship areas and non heartland areas, and turning them out as their own. It's just that so many of the lads being churned out in places Like Leeds, Hull, Wigan & St.Helens are actually born in those locations, we see more Huddersfield and Warrington born players coming through now as well. So on the facts it appears that having a successful competitive local SL club creates top local RL players. I don't know how exactly how it happens but it does.

Whilst of course there's no academies in York, Swinton, Rochdale, Batley, Keighley, Doncaster & Barrow the SL scouts go there and only three current SL first team squad players come from those places.

3.a. I agree about how people have changed. I think people move about a lot more to live and people travel about a lot more day to day to seek work, and entertainment. So it comes to pass that the championship clubs have lost half their audience this last 17 years and have an ageing fanbase, and the kids and families new to the game seem to enjoy seeking out Superleague. The top SL clubs have put thousands of bums on seats for the game.

3.b. No, be fair here. I have qualified the "struggle" as being about the struggle to develop and grow professional Rugby League. The free gangway has allowed our game to be played anywhere, and people have responded to that and play, watch and organise the amateur game all over and it is of course a delight.

The "struggle" comment is about clubs who decide to leave the amateur ranks and go professional hoping to develop bottom up. Sadly it's never worked in nigh on 70 years. If you take any of the new clubs, their problem is paying players. It takes up all the money. Look at London Skolars who are ten years on now. They have gone nowhere and nor has the fan base. 400 fans x £10 x 12 home games gives you £48,000. If you give all that to your playing squad through the season it's not much is it £50 quid a week???

4. It's a nice thought that these wonderful clubs like hemel, oxford or coventry can be well run and rise through the championships, but you leave yourself being asked to explain to me how this process can work when after all those years of slog Hemel for instance could only draw 122 fans to a game in a town we've always had high hopes for.

I'm just going on the reality here, and the future isn't the bottom up, we have to hold our nerve and try to keep the policy of one elite league as the flag ship for the game. A league that is responsible for most of the star players, most of the paying fans, the whole of the SKY contract and I'd hazard a guess - the inspiration for people outside the north to play amateur Rugby League......

Edited by The Parksider, 14 June 2013 - 02:36 PM.


#177 The Parksider

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 02:18 PM

1. Sheffield have teams in Nottingham.

2. You are delighted by that 122 crowd at Hemel. They are in their first ever season.

1. Do they?

2. Are they?

Facts and manners ain't your strong point.

#178 The Parksider

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 02:32 PM

London rugby league shoudnt be judged on how the broncos do in super league for me a better way of developing the game in London and surrounding areas is to put the money into schools, junior, amateur, community rugby looking at increasing those great figures which have dramatically improved in the recent past.

A wonderful thought, but the SKY money is not available to anything other than Superleague.

Yes it's shame it looks like around £17.000,000 has been wasted on trying to develop the sport in London at pro level and several £million more in Wales, Gateshead and Paris.

However around £40 million was wasted when Bradford, Salford and Wakefield alone hit the buffers and ended up back at square one (never mind the millions more M62 clubs have "wasted" attempting to succeed in superleague. There are large parts of Salford/Manchester and Bradford that are RL wastelands and could do with millions spending on the RL infrastructure never mind London.

We haven't got it sadly and the only thing we have that has created any growth is Superleague itself.

I will give plaudits to Leeds however, they have inspired and assisted two new junior clubs to start up in North Leeds which was an amateur wasteland, and they have started to sign kids from the north of Leeds the latest from Whinmoor Warriors. If we're going to spend money on developing the junior game it may have more return up here than in London.

#179 keighley

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 02:36 PM

1. Do they?

2. Are they?

Facts and manners ain't your strong point.

 

Another poster queried that and I have given my explanation.

 

2. Alright, i should have defined that more precisely. Hemel are in their first season as a semi pro member of the Championships. Happy now. That they are in their second or third decade as a RL club just supports the slowly, slowly build a bse theory of Rl expansion. Cue another dig at the 122 attendance for the nth time.

 

For you to impugn another's manners is really rich. If manners maketh man, i'm not so sure what you are.



#180 The Parksider

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 02:39 PM

If manners maketh man, i'm not so sure what you are.

Help!! CKN I'm being cyber bullied!!!




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