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A sport born of rebellion?


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#21 Larry the Leit

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 11:33 AM

Bradford, Atonio Fattorini, owner of a jewelry business

 

This firm is still (or was up until a few years ago) producing medals that are presented in the game.



#22 longboard

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 11:35 AM

So they rebelled against the staus quo.

 

In a sense there was a rejection of the status quo in how an aspect of the game was organised, but the actions of what became the NU clubs was a reaction to changing economic and social circumstances. So, there wasn't a status quo in the wider context in which rugby operated The NU clubs were dealing with an organisation that didn't want to adapt to changing circumstances. The RFU got there eventually in the late twentieth century though. 



#23 marklaspalmas

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 11:49 AM

In a sense there was a rejection of the status quo in how an aspect of the game was organised, but the actions of what became the NU clubs was a reaction to changing economic and social circumstances. So, there wasn't a status quo in the wider context in which rugby operated The NU clubs were dealing with an organisation that didn't want to adapt to changing circumstances. The RFU got there eventually in the late twentieth century though. 

 

Hmm. Reject/rebel. It was organic growth after the initial act of rebellion, sure. But first they had to act when faced with the RFU head-in-the-sand approach to evolution. TBF there were many different factors influencing the decision to go it alone. The OP suggested this wasn't an act of rebellion. While the initial intentions clearly weren't, the august 95 split, in my opinion, was.


 

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#24 Padge

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 11:51 AM

Interesting, can you tell us more on this?

The first rule of The Northern Union was that no player could be a professional, this was defined thus; "any player who shall receive from his club or any member of it any money or consideration whatsoever (except for Bona Fide brokwn time) actual or prospective for services to the club of which he is a member"

 

The maximum payment for broken time was 6 shillings (30p [£30]) and the payment had to not exceed what the player would earn for one day's pay.

 

Clubs could be find from £25 [£2,600] and £150 [£15,600]

 

The rules were relaxed in 1898, to allow professionalism, however players still had to be in full time employment outside of the game and billiard markers, waiters at licensed houses etc. were still barred. Any player who became unemployed through reason's beyond their control had to apply to the Northern Union to continue playing whilst he sought alternative employment.

 

The figures in [] brackets are the modern approximate equivalent. 



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#25 Northern Sol

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 11:52 AM

Here are the backgrounds to some of the club secretaries at the time.

 

Leigh,  John Quirk,  Accountant
Bradford, Atonio Fattorini, owner of a jewelry business
Halifax Joe Nicholl, owner of hoisery, hatter's and outfitters business.
Leeds, Henry Sewell, manager at a wood engraving business.
Warrington, James Warren, prominant freemason and founder of Commercial Travellers Association.
Huddersfield, John Clifford, owner of paper tube business.
Widnes, Jack Smith, manager of a chemical company that was to become ICI.
Brighouse, Henry Hirst, wealthy industrialist with textile  and metals businisses
Joe Platt, Oldham, owned a surveying business, director of a spinning company and an advertising company  and MD of acompany that owned four theatres
 
Not exactly a bunch of pitmen.

No, but they weren't landed gentry either.



#26 Padge

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 11:55 AM

Regardless of their middle class backgrounds and educations which were obviously quiet different to the majority of players at the clubs they ran, they carried out an act of rebellion.

They didn't, the whole thing was a monumental cock-up. The clubs resigned from the Lancashire and Yorkshire unions, not because of broken time but the resigned over their wishes to have competitions and leagues. The yoks and Lancs Unions were dead against such forms of fixtures and wanted nothing to do with it.

 

The clubs thought they could resign from the county unions and remain in the RFU and then take charge of their own affairs, they hadn't realised that to be in the RFU you had to belong to a county union.

 

The real motive behind the split was fixture arrangements and not money.



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#27 marklaspalmas

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 12:01 PM

They didn't, the whole thing was a monumental cock-up. The clubs resigned from the Lancashire and Yorkshire unions, not because of broken time but the resigned over their wishes to have competitions and leagues. The yoks and Lancs Unions were dead against such forms of fixtures and wanted nothing to do with it.

 

The clubs thought they could resign from the county unions and remain in the RFU and then take charge of their own affairs, they hadn't realised that to be in the RFU you had to belong to a county union.

 

The real motive behind the split was fixture arrangements and not money.

 

I think you're right in that the consquences of the clubs' actions hadn't been thought through, but I imagine you're not suggesting that fixture arrangements was the sole reason for the split? There were many factors, including most importantly money. MOney for the clubs not the players. Resigning was an act of rebellion, the results of which went much further much more quickly than could've been foreseen by anyone.


 

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#28 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 12:03 PM

I always thought it wasn't compensation for the time they were plaing on a Saturday but more for work they missed from picking up injuries while playing, ie the time they were broken for.  It was this making sure people weren't without cash because of a rugby injury that was the issue as the RFU deemed it to be professionalism for any money to end up in the pockets of the players.

 I dont think so


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#29 Padge

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 12:05 PM

Athletic News

 

I think you're right in that the consquences of the clubs' actions hadn't been thought through, but I imagine you're not suggesting that fixture arrangements was the sole reason for the split? There were many factors, including most importantly money. MOney for the clubs not the players. Resigning was an act of rebellion, the results of which went much further much more quickly than could've been foreseen by anyone.

 

I would recommend getting your hands on a copy of "The Rugby League Myth" by Mike Latham and Tom Mather.

 

My own research dug up this quote from Athletic News at the time.

 

 “The great mistake of all was to resign membership of the Yorkshire Union and attempt to shelter themselves under the wing of the parent body. Those who advised the step may now be astonished to find that membership of the English Union entails acknowledgement of the county union’s authority”



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#30 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 12:05 PM

This firm is still (or was up until a few years ago) producing medals that are presented in the game.

they became Grattans as well

they also made the first challenge cup.

Joe Fattorini was a wealthy man.

 

th people who founded Hull FC were former public schoolboys


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#31 marklaspalmas

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 12:06 PM

Athletic News

 

 

I would recommend getting your hands on a copy of "The Rugby League Myth" by Mike Latham and Tom Mather.

 

My own research dug up this quote from Athletic News at the time.

 

 “The great mistake of all was to resign membership of the Yorkshire Union and attempt to shelter themselves under the wing of the parent body. Those who advised the step may now be astonished to find that membership of the English Union entails acknowledgement of the county union’s authority”

 

I've read it, and I agreed with your point. They were still rebelling at the time, although they failed to understand the consequences.


 

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#32 JohnM

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 12:07 PM

not sure they were trying to overturn the old order, more that they were leaving one "club" and starting another.



#33 Padge

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 12:11 PM

I've read it, and I agreed with your point. They were still rebelling at the time, although they failed to understand the consequences.

But they weren't rebelling, they were trying to control their destiny and remain with the RFU. They thought that their actions would give them control of their fixtures within the auspices of the RFU.



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#34 marklaspalmas

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 12:13 PM

But they weren't rebelling, they were trying to control their destiny and remain with the RFU. They thought that their actions would give them control of their fixtures within the auspices of the RFU.

 

Well, they were ceratinly rebelling against the authority of their county unions.

 

If you mean they didn't want to break away, then of course that's true.

 

Controlling their fixtures=having more power=having more money. Yeah?


 

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#35 longboard

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 12:25 PM

No, but they weren't landed gentry either.

 

No, the gentry had their own sports, as opposed to the football codes which were regarded as "games" by many of the landed classes. Huntin', shootin' and fishin'-now they are/were proper sports  ;) but that's another thread....................



#36 Northern Sol

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 12:32 PM

No, the gentry had their own sports, as opposed to the football codes which were regarded as "games" by many of the landed classes. Huntin', shootin' and fishin'-now they are/were proper sports  ;) but that's another thread....................

Yes, but their southern equivalent would have included a sprinkling of titles and estates. They were far from being socialists or manual workers but they weren't exactly establishment figures either. No knighthoods for them.


Edited by Northern Sol, 12 June 2013 - 12:32 PM.


#37 Padge

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 12:33 PM

Well, they were ceratinly rebelling against the authority of their county unions.

 

If you mean they didn't want to break away, then of course that's true.

 

Controlling their fixtures=having more power=having more money. Yeah?

 

At the end of the day they didn't want to leave the RFU or overthrow it, now that would be a rebellion.



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#38 shaun mc

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 12:38 PM

Clubs actually spent less on broken time payments in the 1895-96 season than they did in previous seasons under 'amatuer' rules. Leeds being one.

#39 marklaspalmas

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 12:46 PM

At the end of the day they didn't want to leave the RFU or overthrow it, now that would be a rebellion.

 

But they wanted out of their local union. They wanted more big games against local rivals. They wanted Cup comps. They wanted the receipts from big crowds. They wanted interferring busybodys from the RFU to keep their noses out.

 

So they did something about it. Misguided maybe, unintentional for sure, altruistic hardly. But they rebelled.


 

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#40 Padge

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 12:47 PM

Yes, but their southern equivalent would have included a sprinkling of titles and estates. They were far from being socialists or manual workers but they weren't exactly establishment figures either. No knighthoods for them.

But they were men of wealth and influence Henry Hirst Waller was privately educated and would have had the contacts and influene that that entails, Jack Smith was a magistrate and county alderman and was awarded an honorary degree from Liverpool University, not something thrown at celebs at the time.



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