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A sport born of rebellion?


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#41 Middleman

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 12:48 PM

This firm is still (or was up until a few years ago) producing medals that are presented in the game.

http://www.fattorini.co.uk/FA_Cup.aspx

and the F.A. Cup

 

Antonio Fattorini Played Northern Union Rugby for Manningham aswell , they later provided medals & Trophies for the Burgeoning Football Association game when the club switched to Football as Bradford City.

 

Re rebellion ,In France Yes , in England No  - only in the eyes of Twickenham , more neccessity , and they wanted to pay there star players alot more than broken time payments , that was a last ditch attempt by the northern clubs to compromise before even that was stamped on .Tony Collins recent book was a really good read for the reasoning facts on the split.

 

 http://www.scratchingshedpublishing.com/products-page/rugby-league/1895-all-that-inside-rugby-leagues-hidden-history/



#42 Padge

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 12:48 PM

Clubs actually spent less on broken time payments in the 1895-96 season than they did in previous seasons under 'amatuer' rules. Leeds being one.

A club's biggest expense at the time was travel costs.



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#43 Northern Sol

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 01:42 PM

But they were men of wealth and influence Henry Hirst Waller was privately educated and would have had the contacts and influene that that entails, Jack Smith was a magistrate and county alderman and was awarded an honorary degree from Liverpool University, not something thrown at celebs at the time.

They were men of influence and wealth among their own kind. None of it meant much to the gentry. A mere magistrate with an honours degree was hardly fit company especially if their money had been made in trade.



#44 Padge

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 02:23 PM

They were men of influence and wealth among their own kind. None of it meant much to the gentry. A mere magistrate with an honours degree was hardly fit company especially if their money had been made in trade.

I don't really get the point you are arguing about.

 

Hull F.C was formed by former pupils of Rugby, St.Peters and Cheltenham public schools

York was founded by former pupils of St.Peters private boarding school

The Earl of Derby was a Patron of St.Helens and Sir Joseph Beecham was a vice president.


Edited by Padge, 12 June 2013 - 02:53 PM.


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#45 Northern Sol

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 02:52 PM

It don't really get the point you are arguing about.

I was mostly disagreeing with Angie when your list of directors caught my eye.

 

The point I'm making is that there were class differences between those running the game in the north and those in the south. The northerners were by-and-large self-made-men (or their father / grandfather was) making their money in industry. Naturally they were significant men in their communities. 

 

But the southerners were often gentry who were the real establishment (Angelo uses the term to describe the northerners). None of them would have been seen dead inside a factory.

 

There was a class angle to the "rebellion". It just wasn't a particularly socialist one. The northerners thought that they could make the southerners respect them and accept their ways; the southerners were not interested in the nouveaux riches or the hoi polloi.



#46 marklaspalmas

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 03:11 PM

I was mostly disagreeing with Angie when your list of directors caught my eye.

 

The point I'm making is that there were class differences between those running the game in the north and those in the south. The northerners were by-and-large self-made-men (or their father / grandfather was) making their money in industry. Naturally they were significant men in their communities. 

 

But the southerners were often gentry who were the real establishment (Angelo uses the term to describe the northerners). None of them would have been seen dead inside a factory.

 

There was a class angle to the "rebellion". It just wasn't a particularly socialist one. The northerners thought that they could make the southerners respect them and accept their ways; the southerners were not interested in the nouveaux riches or the hoi polloi.

 

From my reading of Collins, etc. I think it's hard to make much of the class angle when it comes to analysing the motivations behind 1895. NU club management may not be exactly the same class/breed as their southern counterparts, but had far more in common with them than their own players.



#47 Padge

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 03:15 PM

I was mostly disagreeing with Angie when your list of directors caught my eye.

 

The point I'm making is that there were class differences between those running the game in the north and those in the south. The northerners were by-and-large self-made-men (or their father / grandfather was) making their money in industry. Naturally they were significant men in their communities. 

 

But the southerners were often gentry who were the real establishment (Angelo uses the term to describe the northerners). None of them would have been seen dead inside a factory.

 

There was a class angle to the "rebellion". It just wasn't a particularly socialist one. The northerners thought that they could make the southerners respect them and accept their ways; the southerners were not interested in the nouveaux riches or the hoi polloi.

I agree with you to a point, but see the edit to the post you quoted.

 

A lot of the clubs were formed by the same if not similar people to those forming clubs in the South, the difference was that the Northern Clubs tended to be 'open' whereas the Southern clubs tended to be 'closed'.

 

The open clubs would have anyone as a member, even the working class, whereas the closed clubs tended towards a restricted membership where to be a member you either had to be at or be a former pupul of a certain school.

 

It was the openess of the Northern clubs that caused a lot of friction, closed clubs often refused to play games against open clubs in the early years.



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#48 Ponterover

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 03:20 PM

Plenty of closed clubs up north too, Pontefract RUFC as an example (as Old Pomfretians) was only for old boys of The King's Grammar School until the late 1960s



#49 Northern Sol

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 03:29 PM

From my reading of Collins, etc. I think it's hard to make much of the class angle when it comes to analysing the motivations behind 1895. NU club management may not be exactly the same class/breed as their southern counterparts, but had far more in common with them than their own players.

They did but I'm not sure that their southern counterparts saw it that way.



#50 Padge

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 03:31 PM

Plenty of closed clubs up north too, Pontefract RUFC as an example (as Old Pomfretians) was only for old boys of The King's Grammar School until the late 1960s

That is why I used the word 'tended'.

 

Liverpool and Manchester clubs refused to play Hull because Hull was open.


Edited by Padge, 12 June 2013 - 03:34 PM.


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#51 keighley

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 03:36 PM

no it wasn't a myth

rather  than pay players they were to be compensated for time lost at work on game day-people in industry worked on Saturday. It was a fixed ammount.

 

By this the northern clubs thought they would stave off vprofessionalism and stay onside with the RFU. The people running the clubs weren't socialist firebrands, they were figures of the establishment

 

You don't have to be a socialist firebrand to start a rebellion. The rich men running the game in the north were mostly nouveau riche with their money coming from the industrial revolution. The people running the RFU were the ancien regime and felt threatened by working class players busting their patrician a**s and petit bourgoisie funding these people making the patrician rulers of the game and it's founders very defintely at the bottom of the pecking order.

 

They seized upon the broken time issue as a club with which to repel this invasion of working class players and get them out of the game. They were quite happy with gentlemen players claiming extravagant expenses for playing but broken time was to be verboten.

 

The Northern clubs did not so much paint themselves into a corner as they were forced into it by the RFU who were hell bent on getting the balance of rugby power back from Wigan and Leeds to Harlequins and Blackheath and were prepared to commit rugby suicide to cut this cancer of Northern dominance based on working calss players out of their game.

 

Faced with that the good burgers who ran the Northern Union clubs did indeed rebel against the oppression that was being foistered on them by the RFU.

 

The whole situation has a similarity with the American revolution. They were being dictated to and discriminated against by the British and broke away and broke away/rebelled to safeguard their way of life but they weren't wild revolutioanries. The state they founded had a property vote only, so half the population could not vote and they retained slavery. They were men of property and business but they rebelled nevertheless.



#52 keighley

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 03:45 PM

At the end of the day they didn't want to leave the RFU or overthrow it, now that would be a rebellion.

 

Did they not collectively in Augst 1895 resign from the RFU and form the Northern RFU, a seperate and new organisation and therfore a rebel orgainisation.



#53 keighley

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 03:50 PM

Plenty of closed clubs up north too, Pontefract RUFC as an example (as Old Pomfretians) was only for old boys of The King's Grammar School until the late 1960s

 

My son of a miner father, went there on a scholarship on the 1930s, so they screwed up on that one. his accent wouild have curled their toes.



#54 marklaspalmas

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 03:57 PM

My son of a miner father, went there on a scholarship on the 1930s, so they screwed up on that one. his accent wouild have curled their toes.

 

Old Pomfretians always had a much more elastic view on who could play for their club otherwise they'd've never survived.



#55 Johnoco

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 04:03 PM

You also could not work in a bar. Probably something to do with the temperance movement.

I think the explanation is more practical. Barman is a job that could easily involve no actual work for the player concerned. Not like clocking in at a factory and working all day producing things. It could easily be got around.
I also think it *was* a rebellion, regardless of their intention or the social make up of the owners. Society then was much more conformist and you didnt organise any sort of breakaway without conviction you were right and they were wrong.

#56 RunItOffAfi

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 04:05 PM

Good topic this. Whether the issue which caused the separation was broken time payments or wanting cup and league competitions is open to debate, and I suspect it was a combination of the two. What I did start to wonder, some years ago, is why the RFU was so dead set against what they saw as professionalism, when, particularly with regard to broken time payments, it was only making sure players weren't out of pocket when missing a work shift because of having to travel long distances to matches on Saturday mornings. After some research, what I did find out is that rugby lost loads of clubs to pro football when that started and, more than likely, the RFU were anxious to avoid a repeat situation. Only speculation, I know, but it does sound plausible.



#57 marklaspalmas

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 04:05 PM

I think the explanation is more practical. Barman is a job that could easily involve no actual work for the player concerned. Not like clocking in at a factory and working all day producing things. It could easily be got around.
I also think it *was* a rebellion, regardless of their intention or the social make up of the owners. Society then was much more conformist and you didnt organise any sort of breakaway without conviction you were right and they were wrong.

 

Yes and yes



#58 Padge

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 04:12 PM

Did they not collectively in Augst 1895 resign from the RFU and form the Northern RFU, a seperate and new organisation and therfore a rebel orgainisation.

What happened was they actually resigned from the RFU before that without realising it. The Lancashire Daily post reported on August 27th that the clubs had resigned from the Yorkshire clubs resigned from the Yorkshire Union on August 26th at a meeting at The Green Dragon Hotel in Leeds, by resigning from the Yorkshire Union they resigned from the RFU, the clubs thought they could remain in the RFU. The Lancashire clubs left their Union at a meeting in Manchester at the Grand Hotel. in May 

 

The clubs didn't resign from the RFU, they couldn't.

 

See my earlier quote from Old Ebor in the Athletic News


Edited by Padge, 12 June 2013 - 04:14 PM.


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#59 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 04:20 PM

I was mostly disagreeing with Angie when your list of directors caught my eye.

The point I'm making is that there were class differences between those running the game in the north and those in the south. The northerners were by-and-large self-made-men (or their father / grandfather was) making their money in industry. Naturally they were significant men in their communities.

But the southerners were often gentry who were the real establishment (Angelo uses the term to describe the northerners). None of them would have been seen dead inside a factory.

There was a class angle to the "rebellion". It just wasn't a particularly socialist one. The northerners thought that they could make the southerners respect them and accept their ways; the southerners were not interested in the nouveaux riches or the hoi polloi.

How different we're these people to the ones running union clubs or the sport in general in other parts of the country including the South?
We know that to this day the aristocracy are interested in union, but I'm not sure what their pro active involvement in the sport is or was historically. The establishment IMHO dined further down the food chain than you suggest
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#60 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 04:25 PM


Plenty of closed clubs up north too, Pontefract RUFC as an example (as Old Pomfretians) was only for old boys of The King's Grammar School until the late 1960s


A work colleague of my father played for old pomfretians in the 1950s his name was Clifford piper he didn't go to kings school
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