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A sport born of rebellion?


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#61 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 04:27 PM

My son of a miner father, went there on a scholarship on the 1930s, so they screwed up on that one. his accent wouild have curled their toes.

There was nothing posh about kings school
Although it was a little more desirable than normanton grammar.
The club isn't that old

Edited by l'angelo mysterioso, 12 June 2013 - 04:31 PM.

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#62 Johnoco

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 04:28 PM

The fact that the owners were wealthy actually makes it more of a rebellion. Middle class Victorians didn't go against authority lightly, it wasnt the done thing.

The club owners might not have been rioting in the streets or shouting 'what do we want? ' (10%) and they were possibly reluctant about it but they were rebelling all the same.

Edited by Johnoco, 12 June 2013 - 04:32 PM.

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#63 marklaspalmas

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 04:44 PM

"The Reluctant Rebellion".

 

"The Inadvertant Rebels".


 

You Can't Buy Team Spirit

 

 

 

 


#64 Middleman

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 06:22 PM

[Padge] " The Yorkshire clubs resigned from the Yorkshire Union on August 26th at a meeting at The Green Dragon Hotel in Leeds, by resigning from the Yorkshire Union they resigned from the RFU, .

The Lancashire clubs left their Union at a meeting in Manchester at the Grand Hotel. in May 1895"

 

Great !

Get two Commemorative Plaques up, 1 in Manchester Pre-dating the Yorkshire Clubs resignation for bragging rights , 1 in Leeds predating the George Hotel Meeting so leeds can have the bragging rights over Huddersfield .

We don't need to worry who owns the George anymore ..

 

the Green Dragon I guess would be is referred as being replaced by the Guildford Pub  , now Oxygen on the Headrow Leeds ?

the Grand is still in Piccadilly square albeit now trendy flats

Get Stevo to buy a Flat in the Grand , put his memorabilia there ,

we can all visit over Magic Weekend in May  ... cos that's now the real anniversary of the split in 1895 ...

now that's rebellion


Edited by Middleman, 12 June 2013 - 06:24 PM.


#65 Phil

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 06:31 PM

I was mostly disagreeing with Angie when your list of directors caught my eye.

 

The point I'm making is that there were class differences between those running the game in the north and those in the south. The northerners were by-and-large self-made-men (or their father / grandfather was) making their money in industry. Naturally they were significant men in their communities. 

 

But the southerners were often gentry who were the real establishment (Angelo uses the term to describe the northerners). None of them would have been seen dead inside a factory.

 

There was a class angle to the "rebellion". It just wasn't a particularly socialist one. The northerners thought that they could make the southerners respect them and accept their ways; the southerners were not interested in the nouveaux riches or the hoi polloi.

 

 

Bourgeoisie v Aristocracy in very simplified terms.


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#66 Ponterover

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 07:38 PM

A work colleague of my father played for old pomfretians in the 1950s his name was Clifford piper he didn't go to kings school

 

That's interesting, having spent most of my formative years down there, I'd always been led to believe that only old boys could play until The Sports Council part funded the replacement for the old wooden hut and forced them to open up.

 

The current club chairman is a close family friend (and old boy of Kings), I'll quiz him on that.



#67 Trojan

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 07:39 PM

the idea that it was some kind of noble uprising by horny handesonse of toil to play the game they loved was at best a myth: at worst bullsh it

 

the clubs were founded and run by wealthy educated people. They saw what that professionasm was messing up soccer, were under pressure to pay their players, decided the clubs couldn't afford it and acted accordingly...a compromise: a compromse that the RFU rejected...although it could have gon the other way. The northern clubs didn't rebel. they had painted themselves into a corner.

 

It was born of rebellion inasmuchas people like Rev Frank Marshall, headmaster of Almondbury Grammar School was fond of reporting local players to the RFU and getting them banned because he could prove they had taken money, either for broken time or to play. 

It's true that the Lancashire and Yorkshire sides didn't want to secede from the RFU they were forced to. But IMO the RFU expected the L&Y clubs to concede once they'd lost the vote on broken time.  The clubs did not concede, they set up their own show. If the secession of the Southern States of the US  in 1860 was a rebellion then this too was a rebellion.


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#68 Ponterover

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 07:41 PM

There was nothing posh about kings school
Although it was a little more desirable than normanton grammar.
The club isn't that old

 

There's a photo in the clubhouse of the 1890-91 Yorkshire cup team, that's pretty old in my book



#69 Padge

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 07:43 PM

There's a photo in the clubhouse of the 1890-91 Yorkshire cup team, that's pretty old in my book

 

There's a photo in my house of a pub that's 400 years old, our house is only 35 years old though.



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#70 Trojan

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 07:55 PM

No, but they weren't landed gentry either.

 

Exactly. They were "trade" as far as those who ran the RFU were concerned such people were no better than the miners and weavers who were playing the game.

But it's true that the L&Y clubs as far as playing strength and success on the field was concerned were the best in the country.  IMO the RFU had seen what had happened to soccer and were determined it wouldn't happen to "their" game.  Those who founded the NFU presumably took the pragmatic view that what was sauce for the goose (soccer) was sauce for the gander (Rugby)

If you look at the early winners of the FA Cup, you find Old Etonians, Royal Engineers, Wanderers, Oxford University. After the advent of professionalism you find West Brom and Blackburn Rovers winning the cup.  The RFU knew that the L&Y clubs were dominating Rugby, they saw broken time as the thin end of the wedge (which TBF it proved to be) and they guessed that if full professionalism was allowed than Rugby would go the way of soccer.  They determined to put a stop to this.  But I'm sure they didn't expect the outcome they got.


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#71 Padge

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 07:57 PM

It was born of rebellion inasmuchas people like Rev Frank Marshall, headmaster of Almondbury Grammar School was fond of reporting local players to the RFU and getting them banned because he could prove they had taken money, either for broken time or to play. 

It's true that the Lancashire and Yorkshire sides didn't want to secede from the RFU they were forced to. But IMO the RFU expected the L&Y clubs to concede once they'd lost the vote on broken time.  The clubs did not concede, they set up their own show. If the secession of the Southern States of the US  in 1860 was a rebellion then this too was a rebellion.

The clubs that weren't rebelling though, they were trying their utmost to remain within the RFU, the fact that they cocked it up and finished up resigning from the RFU by default when they thought they hadn't doesn't make them rebels it makes them naive.



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#72 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 08:45 PM

There's a photo in the clubhouse of the 1890-91 Yorkshire cup team, that's pretty old in my book

Different incarnation if the club
Old pomfretians wasn't formed until after World War Two changing its name to pontefract in the 1960s I forget exactly what year

Halifax rugby union club until recently claimed to have won the original yorkshire cup, which had actually been won by the club that joined the northern union. Halifax union club wasn't even formed until the 1920s
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#73 Padge

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 09:19 PM

Exactly. They were "trade" as far as those who ran the RFU were concerned such people were no better than the miners and weavers who were playing the game.

But it's true that the L&Y clubs as far as playing strength and success on the field was concerned were the best in the country.  IMO the RFU had seen what had happened to soccer and were determined it wouldn't happen to "their" game.  Those who founded the NFU presumably took the pragmatic view that what was sauce for the goose (soccer) was sauce for the gander (Rugby)

If you look at the early winners of the FA Cup, you find Old Etonians, Royal Engineers, Wanderers, Oxford University. After the advent of professionalism you find West Brom and Blackburn Rovers winning the cup.  The RFU knew that the L&Y clubs were dominating Rugby, they saw broken time as the thin end of the wedge (which TBF it proved to be) and they guessed that if full professionalism was allowed than Rugby would go the way of soccer.  They determined to put a stop to this.  But I'm sure they didn't expect the outcome they got.

 

I suggest you do more reading, there are many reports about the arguments with the Lancs and Yorks Unions over fixtures, leagues and cup competitions being an issue for years before the split, the senior clubs weren't having this argument with the RFU, the RFU frowned upon such competitions but didn't ban them and left it to the counties to decide.

 

The Lancashire Union was formed in 1881, prior to this Manchester Rugby Club was solely in charge of County fixtures, before long Manchester and Liverpool dominated the  Lancashire Union and effectively controlled the county.

 

West Lancasire clubs, mindful of soccer's success, decided to form their own union in November 1984, they had 24 clubs who competed for the West Lancashire Cup in the 85/86 season by the next season they were up to 50 clubs. In 1889 they decided to form a league to replace the knock out cup. This league consisted of 8 teams and lasted for two years despite attracting crowds as high as 15,000.

 

In Yorkshire 12 clubs decided in 1892 that they wanted to form a league system over which they would have control. The Yorkshire union vetoed the idea.

 In the 92/93 season as an effort to appease the clubs The Yorkshire Rugby Football Union Senior Competition was given the go ahead.

 

Back in Lancashire the idea of a league was revisited in 1892 and the Lancashire Club Championship was born.

 

The idea of a league competition in Yorkshire hit the buffers at the end of the 1894/95 season when clubs from the lower division demanded automatic promotion to the Seniors competition.  Hull and Wakefield had finished bottom of the Seniors and Morley and Castleford were champions and runners up in the Seconds competition. In Lancashire they had used a play-off system to decide if a club would be promoted.

 

Morley and Castleford demanded that they should be promoted at the expense of Hull and Wakefield, however the Senior Clubs voted to keep Hull and Wakefield in.

 

The Yorkshire Union vetoed the Senior clubs decision and this is what forced the Yorkshire clubs to resign from the Yorkshire Union and thus without realising it from the RFU a similar argument happened in Lancashire when the clubs demanded more control over their own fixtures. When all this was going on broken time wasn't a big issue (illegal payments and inducements may have been but broken time wasn't).

 

The senior clubs had been discussing for some time having a Lancashire Northen Union League and Yorkshire Northern Union League based on a Seniors competition and having the winners of each competition play-off to be Northern Union champions, such proposals had been put to the RFU but rejected.

 

The RFU almost certainly would like to be rid of some of the troublesome Northern Clubs especially the ones indulging in underhand professionalism. The actions of the senior clubs in isolating themselves and resigning from the county unions over the issue of Leagues gave the RFU what they wanted on a plate, it was the RFU that pushed this as a broken time and professionalism argument not the clubs as this would get support from many quarters where as the objection of the county unions to leagues would probably get less support.

 

Broken time is a red herring and was used as a stick to beat the Northern Clubs with by the RFU through the Southern media.


Edited by Padge, 12 June 2013 - 09:35 PM.


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#74 Johnoco

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 09:42 PM


The clubs that weren't rebelling though, they were trying their utmost to remain within the RFU, the fact that they cocked it up and finished up resigning from the RFU by default when they thought they hadn't doesn't make them rebels it makes them naive.


So why didn't they just pack it in after a year or two if it was just a trivial spat? It was an act of rebellion.

No I don't care if you're if you're into different bands

No cause for so much hatred, I'm just a different man

Pull off that cover, I will too, and learn to understand

With music deep inside we'll make world unity our plan

 

7 Seconds -Walk Together, Rock Together


#75 Padge

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 09:47 PM

So why didn't they just pack it in after a year or two if it was just a trivial spat? It was an act of rebellion.

 

All the players and officials (including referees) were under life-time bans from the RFU, if they wanted to continue to play rugby they had nowhere to go. Even their grounds were declared as being professionalised and therefore no RFU club or even player could play on a NU pitch without professionalising themselves. If they had packed in and a new committee organised a whole bunch of new players they would have had nowhere to play.



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#76 Northern Sol

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 09:58 PM

The clubs that weren't rebelling though, they were trying their utmost to remain within the RFU, the fact that they cocked it up and finished up resigning from the RFU by default when they thought they hadn't doesn't make them rebels it makes them naive.

They were taking on the RFU establishment whether they intended to resign or not. That for me is rebellion.



#77 Padge

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 10:14 PM

They were taking on the RFU establishment whether they intended to resign or not. That for me is rebellion.

So if I suggest doing something differently at work I'm starting a rebellion, the clubs wanted a different structure, they weren't taking on the establishment.they (especially in Lancashire) were trying to defend themselves against the dominance of soccer which had become a real threat. South Yorkshire had become a soccer strong hold and the West and north Yorkshire clubs didn't want their areas going the same way.

 

They were trying to protect the game and themselves from the predatory football association by having league and cup competitions. The Unions had concerns that this could lead to professionalism and didn't really care that players and clubs could be lost to soccer as if they wanted to be professional then that's where they could go.



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Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007
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#78 Trojan

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 10:16 PM

I suggest you do more reading, there are many reports about the arguments with the Lancs and Yorks Unions over fixtures, leagues and cup competitions being an issue for years before the split, the senior clubs weren't having this argument with the RFU, the RFU frowned upon such competitions but didn't ban them and left it to the counties to decide.

 

The Lancashire Union was formed in 1881, prior to this Manchester Rugby Club was solely in charge of County fixtures, before long Manchester and Liverpool dominated the  Lancashire Union and effectively controlled the county.

 

West Lancasire clubs, mindful of soccer's success, decided to form their own union in November 1984, they had 24 clubs who competed for the West Lancashire Cup in the 85/86 season by the next season they were up to 50 clubs. In 1889 they decided to form a league to replace the knock out cup. This league consisted of 8 teams and lasted for two years despite attracting crowds as high as 15,000.

 

In Yorkshire 12 clubs decided in 1892 that they wanted to form a league system over which they would have control. The Yorkshire union vetoed the idea.

 In the 92/93 season as an effort to appease the clubs The Yorkshire Rugby Football Union Senior Competition was given the go ahead.

 

Back in Lancashire the idea of a league was revisited in 1892 and the Lancashire Club Championship was born.

 

The idea of a league competition in Yorkshire hit the buffers at the end of the 1894/95 season when clubs from the lower division demanded automatic promotion to the Seniors competition.  Hull and Wakefield had finished bottom of the Seniors and Morley and Castleford were champions and runners up in the Seconds competition. In Lancashire they had used a play-off system to decide if a club would be promoted.

 

Morley and Castleford demanded that they should be promoted at the expense of Hull and Wakefield, however the Senior Clubs voted to keep Hull and Wakefield in.

 

The Yorkshire Union vetoed the Senior clubs decision and this is what forced the Yorkshire clubs to resign from the Yorkshire Union and thus without realising it from the RFU a similar argument happened in Lancashire when the clubs demanded more control over their own fixtures. When all this was going on broken time wasn't a big issue (illegal payments and inducements may have been but broken time wasn't).

 

The senior clubs had been discussing for some time having a Lancashire Northen Union League and Yorkshire Northern Union League based on a Seniors competition and having the winners of each competition play-off to be Northern Union champions, such proposals had been put to the RFU but rejected.

 

The RFU almost certainly would like to be rid of some of the troublesome Northern Clubs especially the ones indulging in underhand professionalism. The actions of the senior clubs in isolating themselves and resigning from the county unions over the issue of Leagues gave the RFU what they wanted on a plate, it was the RFU that pushed this as a broken time and professionalism argument not the clubs as this would get support from many quarters where as the objection of the county unions to leagues would probably get less support.

 

Broken time is a red herring and was used as a stick to beat the Northern Clubs with by the RFU through the Southern media.

 

Much of my information comes from Tony Collins. But as for fixtures,(which up to the seventies were mainly "friendlies") even as recently as the 1960's the "first class" Rugby Union clubs would not give fixtures to clubs that they condsidered "second class"  I played Rugby Union for Morley.  They had won the Yorkshire Cup on several occasions in the thirties and fifties.  They had (have) a ground that (before "Framing the Future") was better than many RL clubs.  But at the time I'm talking about Headingley -  one of the parents of the current Leeds Carnegie club - wouldn't play them.  Headingley, along with Sale in Cheshire, considered themselves a cut above the rest of their Northern brethren.  It was attitudes like this, and punititve rules from the RFU that whilst perhaps not causing the NU clubs to rebel, certainly pushed them into a complete shism. I'm sure those who ran Rugby at the time were of the opinion that it would come to nothing, and the NU clubs would soon be back wagging their tails behind them.  If you doubt me, think of cricket's reaction to Kerry Packer in the 1970's.  Same sort of people, same sort of attitude. The rebellion was not the meeting at Huddersfield in 1895, but the fact that the clubs stuck by the NU and didn't come back. Because I'm sure if they'd "sorry we'll be good boys in future" the RFU would have found a way to readmit them.


Edited by Trojan, 12 June 2013 - 10:19 PM.

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#79 Padge

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 10:21 PM

Much of my information comes from Tony Collins. But as for fixtures,(which up to the seventies were mainly "friendlies") even as recently as the 1960's the "first class" Rugby Union clubs would not give fixtures to clubs that they condsidered "second class"  I played Rugby Union for Morley.  They had won the Yorkshire Cup on several occasions in the thirties and fifties.  They had (have) a ground that (before "Framing the Future") was better than many RL clubs.  But at the time I'm talking about Headingley -  one of the parents of the current Leeds Carnegie club - wouldn't play them.  Headingley, along with Sale in Cheshire, considered themselves a cut above the rest of their Northern brethren.  It was attitudes like this, and punititve rules from the RFU that whilst perhaps not causing the NU clubs to rebel, certainly pushed them into a complete shism. I'm sure those who ran Rugby at the time were of the opinion that it would come to nothing, and the NU clubs would soon be back wagging their tails behind them.  If you doubt me, think of cricket's reaction to Kerry Packer in the 1970's.  Same sort of people, same sort of attitude. The rebellion was not the meeting at Huddersfield in 1895, but the fact that the clubs stuck by the NU and didn't come back. Because I'm sure if they'd "sorry we'll be good boys in future" the RFU would have found a way to readmit them.

 

I don't really see the relevance to the argument to be honest Geoff.  The Northern Clubs wanted to set up a league system, the Unions wanted to have a vetoe on fixtures, there is a wealth of evidence that this was a massive problem in the 1890s


Edited by Padge, 12 June 2013 - 10:23 PM.


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#80 Johnoco

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 10:46 PM

So if I suggest doing something differently at work I'm starting a rebellion, the clubs wanted a different structure, they weren't taking on the establishment.they (especially in Lancashire) were trying to defend themselves against the dominance of soccer which had become a real threat. South Yorkshire had become a soccer strong hold and the West and north Yorkshire clubs didn't want their areas going the same way.

They were trying to protect the game and themselves from the predatory football association by having league and cup competitions. The Unions had concerns that this could lead to professionalism and didn't really care that players and clubs could be lost to soccer as if they wanted to be professional then that's where they could go.

Yes they were trying to act for the good of the game. But the ruling body disagreed with their argument, so they rebelled. The RFU was made up of very powerful and influential men, they didnt want a bunch of upstarts telling them how to run the game. It most definitely was a rebellion.

No I don't care if you're if you're into different bands

No cause for so much hatred, I'm just a different man

Pull off that cover, I will too, and learn to understand

With music deep inside we'll make world unity our plan

 

7 Seconds -Walk Together, Rock Together





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