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A sport born of rebellion?


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#121 Tizzles

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 06:38 PM

What they disagreed about is irrelevant. They disagreed and rebelled. This is my point, not *what* they disagreed with.
Tizzles, surely the thread was started over the term rebellion, so not irrelevant to argue the point.

 

Hence the wink...

 

My feeling is that it was mainly to progress and modernize. It's all very well sitting in 2013 and looking at events of over a hundred years ago. I was lucky to have known my great grandfather, a Wiganer born in 1879, their values, and ways of looking at the world, was very different from ours. We can postulate all we like, but if you want to use the word rebellion, that would suggest that it was a movement all working in the same direction, which it was not. Once people were in a corner they took the only course open, to walk away, because the club they were in did not want them as they were seen as trouble.



#122 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 06:46 PM

Suffragettes. The vast majority of these were middle class well off women.
They were still rebels.

Many we're upper class
The suffragettes were only part of the women's suffrage movement: many of their activities were frowned upon
A campaign is not a rebellion
Suffrage was granted women via the democratic process through that campaigning it was not taken by 'rebellion' women continued to be part of mainstream society: your analogy doesn't work

The clubs who formed the northern union weren't rebels that was the last thing they wanted to be
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#123 longboard

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 06:58 PM

You are joking, it nose dived and it took years to recover. The damage to the national team was immense.

 

No, I wasn't joking. I believe they struggled.



#124 Johnoco

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 07:08 PM

Many we're upper class
The suffragettes were only part of the women's suffrage movement: many of their activities were frowned upon
A campaign is not a rebellion
Suffrage was granted women via the democratic process through that campaigning it was not taken by 'rebellion' women continued to be part of mainstream society: your analogy doesn't work

The clubs who formed the northern union weren't rebels that was the last thing they wanted to be

As I have said, they might have not *wanted* to be rebels but their hand was forced. Going against the grain and forming a new body like the NU was an act of rebellion.
And the analogy is valid since you and padge implied their social status meant they couldn't possibly be rebels.

Edited by Johnoco, 13 June 2013 - 07:09 PM.

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#125 keighley

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 07:10 PM

Sorry there was an apostrophe missing that should have been Northern Union's.

 

The RFU was trying to stop professionalism, the clubs wanted a league. The clubs resigned from their County Unions thinking they were still members of the RFU, they then wanted to set up a Lancs Northern Union and a Yorks Northern Union under the auspices of the RFU operating a league system, they couldn't do that as they were no longer members of the RFU. The clubs hadn't realised that and were left with no option other than to create the Northern Union. They didn't rebel they f'ked up.

 

Edit to add.

 

Once the RFU realised the clubs had done them a favour they quickly moved to make it an issue about broken time and thus it ever was.

 

Thanks for that but it is my understanding that they already had a league and a second division and there was conflict re p and r. The suspension of many top teams for the broken time issue left them pointless in relegation spots, penniless as they were banned from playing and raising revenue at the gate and so. for survival, resigned to form their own league and then, as you have shown, inadvertantly found themselves out in the cold and out of the RFU although they all still officially resigned from that body after the founding meeting at the George.

 

So it seems to me that their resignation from, in particular, the Lancashire RU was linked directly to broken time as the clubs were all suspended for that offence and for their survival had to form their own union, whcih they naively thought they could do and then have it become a member of the RFU. When all that went pearshaped and they were forced into forming the Northern Union then you are correct in your synopsis but it seems that the root cause of their resignation was because of the issue of broken time payments was punished by suspensions which would have led to extinction.

 

There is ample evidence from the previous several years RU agms and statements from seniior RFU officials that broken time was an issue seized upon to attack the northen clubs with to force them out of the fold. There are even statements about being prepared to lose large numbers of clubs and suffer the consequences if they could but reclaim the game for the original participants, namely the public school, upper class stratas.



#126 Padge

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 07:14 PM

No, I wasn't joking. I believe they struggled.

apologies I completely misread your earlier post.



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#127 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 07:17 PM

As I have said, they might have not *wanted* to be rebels but their hand was forced. Going against the grain and forming a new body like the NU was an act of rebellion.
And the analogy is valid since you and padge implied their social status meant they couldn't possibly be rebels.

It was an act of necessity not one of proactiveness qv

Again your analogy with women's suffrage doesn't work
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#128 Padge

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 07:18 PM

Thanks for that but it is my understanding that they already had a league and a second division and there was conflict re p and r. The suspension of many top teams for the broken time issue left them pointless in relegation spots, penniless as they were banned from playing and raising revenue at the gate and so. for survival, resigned to form their own league and then, as you have shown, inadvertantly found themselves out in the cold and out of the RFU although they all still officially resigned from that body after the founding meeting at the George.

 

So it seems to me that their resignation from, in particular, the Lancashire RU was linked directly to broken time as the clubs were all suspended for that offence and for their survival had to form their own union, whcih they naively thought they could do and then have it become a member of the RFU. When all that went pearshaped and they were forced into forming the Northern Union then you are correct in your synopsis but it seems that the root cause of their resignation was because of the issue of broken time payments was punished by suspensions which would have led to extinction.

 

There is ample evidence from the previous several years RU agms and statements from seniior RFU officials that broken time was an issue seized upon to attack the northen clubs with to force them out of the fold. There are even statements about being prepared to lose large numbers of clubs and suffer the consequences if they could but reclaim the game for the original participants, namely the public school, upper class stratas.

I have already explained earlier in detail about the dispute that resulted in the Yorkshire clubs walking out on the Yorkshire Union

 

The Lancashire clubs resigned over fixture control NOT broken time, how many times and how many quotes do you need. It was all well reported at the time, but misrepresented in the 'national' press. The club suspensions were a side show.

 

The clubs could not resign from the RFU at the George, they weren't members. It was more about sorting out fixtures and did any other clubs want in.

 

You can't resign from something you are not a member of.

 

It is well known that broken time and professionalism was an issue for the RFU, I have repeated umpteen times, but it wasn't the big issue for the NOrthern Senior clubs.

 

We all like to think we are who we are because of our forefathers courageous actions and we have built up our own myths, encouraged by the RFU and their media mates.


Edited by Padge, 13 June 2013 - 07:24 PM.


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#129 longboard

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 07:19 PM

apologies I completely misread your earlier post.

 

No problem.

 

Again, IIRC, England were said to have really struggled for forward power in the years after the establishment of the NU. It's a long time since I read about this though.........................



#130 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 07:20 PM

Thanks for that but it is my understanding that they already had a league and a second division and there was conflict re p and r. The suspension of many top teams for the broken time issue left them pointless in relegation spots, penniless as they were banned from playing and raising revenue at the gate and so. for survival, resigned to form their own league and then, as you have shown, inadvertantly found themselves out in the cold and out of the RFU although they all still officially resigned from that body after the founding meeting at the George.

So it seems to me that their resignation from, in particular, the Lancashire RU was linked directly to broken time as the clubs were all suspended for that offence and for their survival had to form their own union, whcih they naively thought they could do and then have it become a member of the RFU. When all that went pearshaped and they were forced into forming the Northern Union then you are correct in your synopsis but it seems that the root cause of their resignation was because of the issue of broken time payments was punished by suspensions which would have led to extinction.

There is ample evidence from the previous several years RU agms and statements from seniior RFU officials that broken time was an issue seized upon to attack the northen clubs with to force them out of the fold. There are even statements about being prepared to lose large numbers of clubs and suffer the consequences if they could but reclaim the game for the original participants, namely the public school, upper class stratas.

The. Clubs who broke away were run by public school upper class strata types. Where do the northern clubs who didn't join the nu fit into your model? Or the welsh clubs or the midlands clubs
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#131 Padge

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 07:31 PM

The. Clubs who broke away were run by public school upper class strata types. Where do the northern clubs who didn't join the nu fit into your model? Or the welsh clubs or the midlands clubs

Gloucester had a suspension for professionalism, amongst others, professionalism, as you indicate wasn't a Northern problem.



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#132 Johnoco

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 07:32 PM

It was an act of necessity not one of proactiveness qv

Again your analogy with women's suffrage doesn't work

It wasn't a necessity at all. It was just the way they wanted the game to go - which the RFU disagreed with. The clubs could have quite easily gone with what the RFU insisted. They didn't and rebelled against it.

No I don't care if you're if you're into different bands

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Pull off that cover, I will too, and learn to understand

With music deep inside we'll make world unity our plan

 

7 Seconds -Walk Together, Rock Together


#133 keighley

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 07:34 PM

Many we're upper class
The suffragettes were only part of the women's suffrage movement: many of their activities were frowned upon
A campaign is not a rebellion
Suffrage was granted women via the democratic process through that campaigning it was not taken by 'rebellion' women continued to be part of mainstream society: your analogy doesn't work

The clubs who formed the northern union weren't rebels that was the last thing they wanted to be

 

That may be true but circumstances compelled them to rebel even if by default in order th safeguard their very existence as clubs.



#134 Padge

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 07:34 PM


 

It wasn't a necessity at all. It was just the way they wanted the game to go - which the RFU disagreed with. The clubs could have quite easily gone with what the RFU insisted. They didn't and rebelled against it.

What were the RFU insisting on? 


Edited by Padge, 13 June 2013 - 07:38 PM.


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#135 Padge

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 07:37 PM

That may be true but circumstances compelled them to rebel even if by default in order th safeguard their very existence as clubs.

 

If you walk out of the exit to a building accidentally thinking you are going to the toilet doesn't mean you have stormed out of a meeting in disgust.



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#136 keighley

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 07:56 PM

The. Clubs who broke away were run by public school upper class strata types. Where do the northern clubs who didn't join the nu fit into your model? Or the welsh clubs or the midlands clubs

 

No they weren't. They were run by noveau riche industrialists who made their money from the working class and whose club membership was becoming working class. The very few northern clubs who didn't join the NU were the clubs who were run by the upper class stratas for the upper class stratas, the Headingleys and old pomfretians, Ermesteads and the like.

 

The Welsh clubs are another animal entirely being, very much like the Northern Union clubs worlkig class clubs. When they flirted with boot money and the like, the Welsh RU and the RFU looked the other way. They didn't want Welsh RU decimating like the RFU was by a breakaway.

 

When they did get on their high horse over the Arthur Gould affair and the purchasing of a house for him, an act of professionalism, the resulting furore was about to have alost all the Welsh clubs join the Northern union. The RU authorities blinked and withdrew their charges.

 

 

Thre were also rumblings from Gloucester and particularly Leicester about expenses and boot money and the like to the point where Leicester were considering Northen union football but once again, the RFU used the once bitten, twice shy approach and dropped any action against them.

 

If the Welsh and Leiceister had jouind the NU, I think RU would be a very much minor sport in the Britsh rugby world but it was not to be,



#137 Tizzles

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 08:02 PM

No they weren't. They were run by noveau riche industrialists who made their money from the working class and whose club membership was becoming working class. The very few northern clubs who didn't join the NU were the clubs who were run by the upper class stratas for the upper class stratas, the Headingleys and old pomfretians, Ermesteads and the like.

 

The Welsh clubs are another animal entirely being, very much like the Northern Union clubs worlkig class clubs. When they flirted with boot money and the like, the Welsh RU and the RFU looked the other way. They didn't want Welsh RU decimating like the RFU was by a breakaway.

 

When they did get on their high horse over the Arthur Gould affair and the purchasing of a house for him, an act of professionalism, the resulting furore was about to have alost all the Welsh clubs join the Northern union. The RU authorities blinked and withdrew their charges.

 

 

Thre were also rumblings from Gloucester and particularly Leicester about expenses and boot money and the like to the point where Leicester were considering Northen union football but once again, the RFU used the once bitten, twice shy approach and dropped any action against them.

 

If the Welsh and Leiceister had jouind the NU, I think RU would be a very much minor sport in the Britsh rugby world but it was not to be,

 

It was a very close run thing... The balance could easily have been swayed. 



#138 Johnoco

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 08:07 PM

What were the RFU insisting on?

So there was no disagreement and they just set up the NU for a bit of a laugh?

Clearly they disagreed over something or they would have all been happy.

No I don't care if you're if you're into different bands

No cause for so much hatred, I'm just a different man

Pull off that cover, I will too, and learn to understand

With music deep inside we'll make world unity our plan

 

7 Seconds -Walk Together, Rock Together


#139 Padge

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 08:31 PM

So there was no disagreement and they just set up the NU for a bit of a laugh?

Clearly they disagreed over something or they would have all been happy.

The RFU was anti-professionalism, that much is obvious.

 

What doesn't get generally reported, other than in the regional press, is the dispute going on between the Senior clubs and the county unions.

 

The clubs big beef at this time was with their county unions, it was the county unions from which the clubs initially resigned in a misguided hope that they could form their own unions affiliated to the RFU but with a league structure to their liking. This was a big error of judgement, the RFU wasn't involved in this argument as it was up to the counties to organise fixtures, however to be a member of the RFU you had to accept the authority of the counties. Its apparent, from reports at the time that the clubs didn't realise what they had done (I have given you references).

 

Can I suggest to those that dispute this sequence of events that you got to a major library, join Gales or a similar reference site (it'll cost you mind) and do some digging, you'll be amazed what you can find.



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#140 Padge

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 09:09 PM

What is not in dispute is that for the RFU professionalism and broken time payments was an issue. There is no point in people keep harping back to it. That is not the argument.

 

The discussion is about the circumstances surrounding the Northern clubs departure from the RFU, I have offered referenced evidence that shows that the clubs departed from the RFU without realising it by resigning from their county unions before the meeting at The George, I have also shown that the reasons for the resigning from the counties was about fixture control and not about broken time.

 

I will have to leave this thread shortly for a while, in the mean time can I suggest that some of the people disputing the sequence of events go away and do some digging to find something that shows that the clubs didn't resign prior to The George or at least follow up the references I have offered and check them out.

 

Have fun, I may post more later but if not bye for now.



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