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A sport born of rebellion?


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#141 Trojan

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 09:45 PM

The. Clubs who broke away were run by public school upper class strata types. Where do the northern clubs who didn't join the nu fit into your model? Or the welsh clubs or the midlands clubs

No the clubs who broke away were run by local businessmen.  As they are today. There may not be much difference these days but there was 100 + years ago.


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#142 SE4Wire

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 10:06 PM

Haven't contributed to this thread but have been following avidly all day.  Have to say thanks to all who have contributed (especially Padge, some great knowledge there and real full explanation of the situation), really great to find out some more about the foundations.  Reckon I'm going to have to go out and buy some Tony Collins books.



#143 Johnoco

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 10:11 PM

Padge, I aren't disputing ajy of your history. The only thing I am arguing aboutsis yours and langs dismissal of it as a rebellion. There was a disagreement and the northern club's went their own way.

#144 Padge

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 10:30 PM

Padge, I aren't disputing ajy of your history. The only thing I am arguing aboutsis yours and langs dismissal of it as a rebellion. There was a disagreement and the northern club's went their own way.

But secession was accidental, they didn't march on Twickers with pitchforks, they were almost saying to the RFU help us the Northern County committees are useless., we can run this better. The RFU just thought thanks punks you've made my day.

 

On another point a lot of Northern clubs were created by former public school pupils who had direct contact with the sport at school, the difference in the North is the clubs were more open. Some clubs were 'works' clubs formed by company owners to keep workers healthy and out of the pub.

 

These clubs were not the product of a few blokes down the pub forming a team (though some undoubtedly were), they were the product of public schools creating clubs in industrial areas and adapting, the self made industrialist in effect became the sponsors but the creators, in the main were still the public schools.

 

South of Lancashire and Yorkshire you had other clubs formed with roots as equally embedded in industry and the workingman, and many fell foul of professionalism rules, but there was no thirst for leagues and little threat from soccer at this time in a lot of these areas.

 

Its amazing considering the strength of soccer in South Lancashire that we have any rugby clubs of note left at all. West and North Yorkshire never had the same pressures but must have seen what was happening in Lancashire and felt threatened.



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#145 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 08:02 AM

That may be true but circumstances compelled them to rebel even if by default in order th safeguard their very existence as clubs.

Some rebellion

New money old money they were still wealthy upper class upper middle class people the same kind of people who were running rugby clubs and other sports clubs all over the country
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#146 amh

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 08:13 AM

Padge mate, I wish you would write a book yourself

 

Tony Collins asked me to tell you to get in touch with him


Edited by amh, 14 June 2013 - 08:18 AM.

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#147 Johnoco

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 12:30 PM

Some rebellion

New money old money they were still wealthy upper class upper middle class people the same kind of people who were running rugby clubs and other sports clubs all over the country

So being wealthy excludes them from being rebellious does it? Why?

#148 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 01:20 PM

So being wealthy excludes them from being rebellious does it? Why?

No it doesn't

I was responding to the previous poster's comment about the background of people in high positions in northern rugby football clubs

My comment regarding rebellion wasn't connected to it

Edited by l'angelo mysterioso, 14 June 2013 - 01:36 PM.

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#149 marklaspalmas

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 01:36 PM

Very interesting thread.

 

For me at least, Padge's POV on the importance of the relationship between the clubs and their county masters is a new angle on a complex issue. Like others, I'd like to see the fruits of his labours in book/essay form.

 

Going back to the OP, I still consider the resignation of the clubs from their county unions to be an act of rebellion. A desire for change of leadership and control, be it county or national level.



#150 Tizzles

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 02:42 PM

When i first started to read up on what actually happened, i was hoping to see it as an act of "rebellion" and confirm what i had always thought. If i'm honest, i was rather disappointed to see that actually, it was not, and more of a set of circumstances culminating in a change, whether they wanted to or not. Thats my take on it anyway.......................... And bloody hell there was some "dry" reading.



#151 Johnoco

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 02:47 PM

Well they wanted to enough to actually set up separate competitions. I reckon if they were not that bothered about the issue they would have been satisfied with making their point.
But there was clearly more to it than that.

#152 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 03:26 PM

Well they wanted to enough to actually set up separate competitions. I reckon if they were not that bothered about the issue they would have been satisfied with making their point.
But there was clearly more to it than that.

I suppose it depends in how you define rebellion
My view tends towards tizzzle's see above
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#153 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 03:26 PM

Well they wanted to enough to actually set up separate competitions. I reckon if they were not that bothered about the issue they would have been satisfied with making their point.
But there was clearly more to it than that.

I suppose it depends in how you define rebellion
My view tends towards tizzzle's see above
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#154 Larry the Leit

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 08:23 PM

And bloody hell there was some "dry" reading.


I think this has influenced Padge's own posting style.....
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#155 Larry the Leit

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 07:12 AM

Going back to the OP, I still consider the resignation of the clubs from their county unions to be an act of rebellion. A desire for change of leadership and control, be it county or national level.

 

I always did.  I'm as guilty as most in thinking that the NU formed so that broken time payments could be made to what were essentially the rougher lads in Yorks and Lancs.  It's important that we know and celebrate our history, and that's why I reckon if, with the help of Padge, we could get a punchy "one pager" together that summarised the facts with the right emphasis then it should be shared widely.

 

Why did I think the above though?  Because it's what my junior school head teacher told me, and he loved his RL. 


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#156 amh

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 08:38 AM

bump


Whilst I do not suffer fools gladly, I will always gladly make fools suffer

A man is getting along on the road of wisdom when he realises that his opinion is just an opinion


#157 Northern Sol

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 07:57 PM

What Padge said is interesting but I have to wonder why this was all overlooked by the likes of Tony Collins. I'd like to hear their take on it.



#158 fieldofclothofgold

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 08:48 PM

Maybe because the research done by Padge was how he saw it?Tony Collins asked Padge to get in touch apparently
but you and I weve been through that and this is not our fate.
So let us so let us not talk falsely now.
The hour is getting late
FROM 2004,TO DO WHAT THIS CLUB HAS DONE,IF THATS NOT GREATNESSTHEN i DONT KNOW WHAT IS.

JAMIE PEACOCK

#159 fieldofclothofgold

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 08:52 PM

Maybe because the research done by Padge was how he saw it?Tony Collins asked Padge to get in touch apparently
but you and I weve been through that and this is not our fate.
So let us so let us not talk falsely now.
The hour is getting late
FROM 2004,TO DO WHAT THIS CLUB HAS DONE,IF THATS NOT GREATNESSTHEN i DONT KNOW WHAT IS.

JAMIE PEACOCK

#160 Tony Collins

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 08:03 AM

I've really enjoyed this discussion. It's been very stimulating. There’s a huge amount of detail about the events leading up to 1895 in ‘Rugby’s Great Split’ but I've posted an extract that discusses what happened immediately before the meeting at the George Hotel here: http://t.co/P372g10Wkn


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Website: http://tcollins.org/





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