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Question Time from Scotland


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#21 Northern Sol

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 09:09 AM

I read on the BBC last week that if full indenpendance was gained Scotland would still want the pensions benefit system for England Wales and NI still to be run from Scotland.

If the Scotch :) want indepence then please take it in its entirety. All this moaning about being ruled from Westminster etc its the same boat as the former industrial heartlands of Other parts of the Uk

They also want to continue using the pound and British passports. It's a joke.



#22 Northern Sol

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 09:11 AM

To be fair anything other than using the electoral roll would be chaotic and expensive.  Though it does seem daft that a good percentage of voters will be English.

Well they do live there, it would be terrible to deprive them of a say in how they are governed.



#23 tim2

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 11:00 AM

Until there's such a thing as Scottish nationality (legally, e.g. with a passport or ID card) then you can only use the electoral roll. Because that's what the vote is partially about!

There are so many unclear things about the result of this vote (e.g. passports amongst many other things) I can't see how anyone can take a decision other than on gut feeling. Precious few believable facts around from what I can see.

Edited by tim2, 14 June 2013 - 11:00 AM.

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#24 GeordieSaint

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 12:38 PM

http://www.guardian....cord-opium-crop

 

http://adventofdecep...ghan-opium-war/

 

 - We went into Afghanistan to prevent the Islam fundamentalists from flooding the western world with heroin but, these days, allow the "friendly" Afghans to grow opium without problem or disruption.

 

That doesn't tell me anything other than we have failed miserably with the eradication process. However, we didn't go to Afghanistan in 2001 to eradicate poppies. Our mission was to destroy i.e. kill, Al Qaeda in Afghanistan as an organisation. When that was achieved, under the auspices of NATO, we moved into a Stabilisation mission, which would have included poppy eradication when it was identified by Commanders and policymakers as the cash crop for fuelling the growing insurgency.

 

For what it is worth, we don't willing let Afghans grow poppies out of complete disregard for the consequences. We could probably wipe out the entire poppy harvest each year if we really wanted to. But could you imagine the ramifications of such a policy? Most of the rural population rely on farming as their main source of income. As poppy is the main cash crop, you'd alienate the vast majority of the rural popualtion across the entire country. That isn't going to make GIRoA look particular good in the eyes of the population is it?!


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#25 GeordieSaint

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 12:40 PM

Until there's such a thing as Scottish nationality (legally, e.g. with a passport or ID card) then you can only use the electoral roll. Because that's what the vote is partially about!

 

Fair point. But what about birth certificates etc? Yes it would be a monumental organisational task but on an issue so important, is it not right to consult all Scots (+ other nationalities living in Scotland)? I know many people who are Scottish but live elsewhere who want to have a vote on the issue.


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#26 Wolford6

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 12:57 PM


For what it is worth, we don't willing let Afghans grow poppies out of complete disregard for the consequences. We could probably wipe out the entire poppy harvest each year if we really wanted to. But could you imagine the ramifications of such a policy? Most of the rural population rely on farming as their main source of income. As poppy is the main cash crop, you'd alienate the vast majority of the rural popualtion across the entire country. That isn't going to make GIRoA look particular good in the eyes of the population is it?!

 

 

Nothing will. The whole exercise has been a wholesale disaster from  practical, military and political objectives.

 

When the west pulls out with its tail between its legs, the Taliban will once again take over and heroin will continue to flood into the USA and Europe.

 

So many lives and limbs lost, a futile jingoistic exercise that we entered  just to massage Blair's ego.


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#27 Northern Sol

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 01:02 PM

Fair point. But what about birth certificates etc? Yes it would be a monumental organisational task but on an issue so important, is it not right to consult all Scots (+ other nationalities living in Scotland)? I know many people who are Scottish but live elsewhere who want to have a vote on the issue.

Basically they don't live in Scotland but would like to tell those who do what to do. Understandable but the result wouldn't impact them in the same way that it would somebody living in Dundee.

 

Hey I'd like a vote too.



#28 GeordieSaint

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 01:13 PM

Nothing will. The whole exercise has been a wholesale disaster from  practical, military and political objectives.

 

When the west pulls out with its tail between its legs, the Taliban will once again take over and heroin will continue to flood into the USA and Europe.

 

So many lives and limbs lost, a futile jingoistic exercise that we entered  just to massage Blair's ego.

 

Just because you see bad news on the TV doesn't necessarily mean the whole adventure has been an unmigitating disaster... Plenty of practical, military and political objectives have been achieved and may very well last when NATO/Coalition combat troops leave. We aren't also completing pulling out; large numbers of training staff and advisors will stay to continue training Afghan forces, which are gradually becoming a rather compotent and battle-hardened force. Anyone who thinks the Taliban are literally going to walk into central Kabul and return to power are very much misguided and don't understand the dynamics of the insurgency, population or the country itself. 

 

I'd argue hunting and killing Al Qaeda post-9/11 was entirely justified. That said, I am not justifying the decision to try and rebuild the country. People can argue the benefits and costs of that decision until they were blue in the face (or popped!). I am just stating it is not as black and white as some people think. Oh and yes, that your original statement was incorrect! :)


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#29 GeordieSaint

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 01:18 PM

Basically they don't live in Scotland but would like to tell those who do what to do. Understandable but the result wouldn't impact them in the same way that it would somebody living in Dundee.

 

Hey I'd like a vote too.

 

It's not that simple though is it?! People have links back to Scotland from all over the UK. What about students currently studying in England but will move back to Scotland once they have finished their studies. Just one example...

 

That said, it obviously makes the process easier of course. :tongue:


Edited by GeordieSaint, 14 June 2013 - 01:23 PM.

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#30 Northern Sol

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 01:24 PM

It's not that simple though is it?! People have links back to Scotland from all over the UK. What about students currently studying in England but will move back to Scotland once they have finished their studies. Just one example...

Everybody has some link to Scotland even if they are completely English (or Welsh etc). There is no such thing as Scottish nationality so we can only go on who can legally vote in a Scottish election. Otherwise we allow one side or the other to rig the vote e.g. (in my admittedly anecdotal experience), Scots living in England would mostly vote "No". Scots at English universities might well be the opposite (they are young). Best not to allow politicians to pick and choose arbitrarily who can vote.



#31 Wolford6

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 01:25 PM

GS

 

You know more about soldiering and Afghanistan than I ever will, but you're too close to the exercise to be wholly objective.

 

I would guess that most of the rest of people in this country:-

 - doesn't give a monkeys whether Al Quaeda or the Taliban runs the drug trade. It does care that we have done nothing to stop the drug supply.

 - can see that we are not 'withdrawing',we have been beaten. We are running away because we can't win and we can't afford to keep trying.

 - Al Quaeda hasn't been eradicated; it's moved its training bases and activities to Africa. Congratulations, you've been the agent to make it expand its operations.

 - If we really wanted to take on Al Quaeda, Saudi Arabia would be a god place to start.

- all the war-disabled soldiers will get wholly unsatisfactory treatment from the UK government over the next fifty years.

 -


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#32 GeordieSaint

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 01:28 PM

 Otherwise we allow one side or the other to rig the vote e.g. (in my admittedly anecdotal experience),

 

Aren't the SNP attempting to do that anyway by lowering the voting age to 16?


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#33 Northern Sol

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 01:31 PM

GS

 

You know more about soldiering and Afghanistan than I ever will, but you're too close to the exercise to be wholly objective.

 

I would guess that most of the rest of people in this country:-

 - doesn't give a monkeys whether Al Quaeda or the Taliban runs the drug trade. It does care that we have done nothing to stop the drug supply.

 - Al Quaeda hasn't been eradicated; it's moved its training bases and activities to Africa. Congratulations, you've been the agent to make it expand its operations.

 - If we really wanted to take on Al Quaeda, Saudi Arabia would be a god place to start.

I do give a money's who runs the drug trade. I'd far rather there wasn't one but if there has to be one, I'd prefer that it doesn't fund Islamic terrorism.

 

Al Qaeda has always been in Africa, this is nothing new e.g. http://en.wikipedia....mbassy_bombings

 

Invading Saudi Arabia, alas, would that it was possible. We wouldn't just be fighting Al Qaeda if we occupied Mecca and Medina.



#34 Northern Sol

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 01:32 PM

Aren't the SNP attempting to do that anyway by lowering the voting age to 16?

Yes, they are. Salmond has few morals. Cameron shouldn't allow him to. Even if I want them to vote "yes", this is despicable.



#35 GeordieSaint

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 01:38 PM

GS

 

You know more about soldiering and Afghanistan than I ever will, but you're too close to the exercise to be wholly objective.

 

I would guess that most of the rest of people in this country:-

 - doesn't give a monkeys whether Al Quaeda or the Taliban runs the drug trade. It does care that we have done nothing to stop the drug supply.

 - can see that we are not 'withdrawing',we have been beaten. We are running away because we can't win and we can't afford to keep trying.

 - Al Quaeda hasn't been eradicated; it's moved its training bases and activities to Africa. Congratulations, you've been the agent to make it expand its operations.

 - If we really wanted to take on Al Quaeda, Saudi Arabia would be a god place to start.

- all the war-disabled soldiers will get wholly unsatisfactory treatment from the UK government over the next fifty years.

 -

 

I think you are a bit injust to me on the objectivity issue! :D I am probably less militant or indoctrinated on issues than most people on this forum. :D

 

If that is what the UK population think, well:

 

1. They would entirely justified in those thoughts.

2. We could win but would need (which we have never had!) the political and public to allow us to succeed. That of course will and never was going to happen in the first place.

3. Al Qaeda in Afghanistan and the leadership has been eradicated. They were already in Africa pre-9/11 (just changed names!) and are being hunted and defeated in Africa as you and I talk ###### on a website!

4. The Saudi authorities do a good enough job at eradicating Al Qaeda as a terrorist threat in their own country. The funding through Saudi for Al Qaeda has been massively hindered but could always clamped down further.

5. Can't really comment on that other than say the current care is very excellent.

 

Shall we discuss something else before NS tells us we are both wrong?!

 

P.S. Looks like he beat me to it... :D


Edited by GeordieSaint, 14 June 2013 - 01:40 PM.

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#36 GeordieSaint

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 01:41 PM

Yes, they are. Salmond has few morals. Cameron shouldn't allow him to. Even if I want them to vote "yes", this is despicable.

 

Well at least they'll be closer to discovering Aliens!

 

N.B. If you didn't see the programme last night, that was one of the reasons for Independence by one young Scot.


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#37 Northern Sol

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 01:42 PM

Shall we discuss something else before NS tells us we are both wrong?!

 

P.S. Looks like he beat me to it... :D

I was going to agree with you actually aside from the bit about Saudi. They may clamp down on Al Qaeda (as Al Qaeda are trying to overthrow the monarchy that's not surprising) but they fund extremist Islam worldwide and Al Qaeda feed off that.



#38 GeordieSaint

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 01:46 PM

I was going to agree with you actually aside from the bit about Saudi. They may clamp down on Al Qaeda (as Al Qaeda are trying to overthrow the monarchy that's not surprising) but they fund extremist Islam worldwide and Al Qaeda feed off that.

 

Just trying to keep the debate light-hearted! ;)

 

I was talking direct action rather than indirect consequences. But yes, you are definitely right in your assertion about Al Qaeda feed off Saudi's form of Islam being spread around the world.


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#39 ckn

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 02:19 PM

5. Can't really comment on that other than say the current care is very excellent.

On that single point, I'd like to substantially differ.  The UK has by far the worst post-discharge care of any NATO nation that I know, if by "current care is very excellent" you mean they don't throw you in a skip then I suppose I can see your point, even the US has better healthcare for their veterans and they routinely chuck their civilians into a skip if they can't afford healthcare.  Critical healthcare for soldiers injured in the line of duty should never have to be funded by charity yet without such charity in the UK it would all fall apart.


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#40 ckn

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 02:25 PM

Back on topic though... all the debates on Question Time last night about Scotland's independence were based on half-truths at best on both sides backed up by self-righteous ranting.  If anyone wanted to hear any of the real facts then that programme would have just sent them entirely the wrong way.

 

If they opened the vote up to the entirety of the UK and made it a condition that if the "yes" vote won that George Galloway would be deported to Scotland then I think that would help gather a few percentage points alone...


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