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the death penalty


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#221 Johnoco

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 07:42 AM

burglary is illegal, a large proportion of the prison population are burglars

So the law is clearly pointless. Legalise it

#222 Severus

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 08:21 AM

So the law is clearly pointless. Legalise it

 

Only if the purpose of imprisonment is to deter others from committing the same crime. Clearly this is not the case.


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#223 Shadow

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 08:23 AM

So the law is clearly pointless. Legalise it

The analogy of legalising it is a poor one, a better comparison to abolition of the death penalty would be to say "change the punishment to community service" but no one has ever suggested legalising murder, in fact one of the things many of the anti capital punishment hand wringing lefty do gooder brigade (of which I'm a proud member) put forward is longer term periods of incarceration for killers. 


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#224 Severus

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 08:25 AM

Murder rates in the US between 1991 and 2011 split into those states with and without the death penalty.

 

http://www.deathpena...er-murder-rates

 

Of course there are other factors that this analysis does not go into (social economic make up of the states, population density etc.).


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#225 Johnoco

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 08:39 AM

Only if the purpose of imprisonment is to deter others from committing the same crime. Clearly this is not the case.

Of course imprisonment is meant to be a deterrent but burglary barely even gets a slap on the wrist today, never mind prison. There is clearly nothing going to stop it so let's just accept it as inevitable and not bother prosecuting offenders.
After all, if a law doesn't deter something 100% it clearly is not worth having.

#226 Johnoco

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 08:42 AM

The analogy of legalising it is a poor one, a better comparison to abolition of the death penalty would be to say "change the punishment to community service" but no one has ever suggested legalising murder, in fact one of the things many of the anti capital punishment hand wringing lefty do gooder brigade (of which I'm a proud member) put forward is longer term periods of incarceration for killers.

An often used comparison when debating the death penalty is that 'it won't stop people murdering like Brady etc'
I am just throwing it in there that we can apply this logic to every single law in the land.

#227 Shadow

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 08:48 AM

An often used comparison when debating the death penalty is that 'it won't stop people murdering like Brady etc'
I am just throwing it in there that we can apply this logic to every single law in the land.

Well use that logic then, not some spurious point that you've invented to argue against to support your position.

No one has suggested decriminalising murder so why apply that to any other offence?

What has been suggested is that a seemingly less harsh sentence, life imprisonment rather than death, has positive benefits in terms of overall offending rates so maybe a better analogy would be to look at punishments for offences with high recidivism rates and see what can be done to improve these statistics. 

My own view being whatever improves everyone's chances of not being a victim of crime is to be applauded and if that includes sending deprived inner city kids on safari holidays rather than locking them in prisons then I'm all in favour of it.


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#228 John Drake

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 08:52 AM

Please avoid making personal comments in here, thank you. It is a very emotive subject, but think before you type and hit the send button, otherwise you could find yourself suspended without warning.

 

http://www.totalrl.c...rs-please-read/


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#229 Johnoco

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 10:00 AM

Well use that logic then, not some spurious point that you've invented to argue against to support your position.
No one has suggested decriminalising murder so why apply that to any other offence?
And why send offending kids on safari? Why not send ones that keep their nose clean?
What has been suggested is that a seemingly less harsh sentence, life imprisonment rather than death, has positive benefits in terms of overall offending rates so maybe a better analogy would be to look at punishments for offences with high recidivism rates and see what can be done to improve these statistics.
My own view being whatever improves everyone's chances of not being a victim of crime is to be applauded and if that includes sending deprived inner city kids on safari holidays rather than locking them in prisons then I'm all in favour of it.

Nothing spurious about it, I used a perfectly valid comparison. The argument seems to go 'people will still kill with the death penalty' . Well people speed despite speed limits and burgle despite that being illegal. So surely all laws might be abandoned if that is a valid argument for not having the death penalty?

Edited by Johnoco, 26 June 2013 - 10:02 AM.


#230 Shadow

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 10:11 AM

It's not a valid comparison because you aren't comparing two similar situations. There's a huge difference between changing the penalty from an offence and decriminalising it entirely. No one is suggesting abandoning laws, it's just that one of the many arguments against the Death penalty is that it is no more (and possibly less) of a deterrent than life imprisonment.

Other arguments against the execution exist as well.

Other penalties are considered, I have been on a speed awareness course rather than receive points on my licence, petty criminals are sent to do community service, anti-social individuals are given curfews and restrictions on their movement. 


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#231 bobbruce

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 10:36 AM

Nothing spurious about it, I used a perfectly valid comparison. The argument seems to go 'people will still kill with the death penalty' . Well people speed despite speed limits and burgle despite that being illegal. So surely all laws might be abandoned if that is a valid argument for not having the death penalty?


That can be reversed though nobody would suggest the way to solve burglary is to have a state sponsored burglar go round robbing the houses of the convicted. The problem with this eye for an eye thing is it does more harm to us as a society than it does to the criminals.

#232 Severus

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 11:04 AM

After all, if a law doesn't deter something 100% it clearly is not worth having.

 

You really think that? We might as well do away with all laws then.


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#233 Phil

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 11:23 AM

Nothing spurious about it, I used a perfectly valid comparison. The argument seems to go 'people will still kill with the death penalty' . Well people speed despite speed limits and burgle despite that being illegal. So surely all laws might be abandoned if that is a valid argument for not having the death penalty?

 

 

Actually, as an anarchist, i do believe in the abolition of all laws.


"Freedom without socialism is privilege and injustice, socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality" - Mikhail Bakunin

#234 Wolford6

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 11:29 AM

Actually, as an anarchist, i do believe in the abolition of all laws.

 

 

Yes, but you'd need an Act of Parliament to abolish them.

:)


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#235 Northern Sol

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 11:29 AM

Nothing spurious about it, I used a perfectly valid comparison. The argument seems to go 'people will still kill with the death penalty' . Well people speed despite speed limits and burgle despite that being illegal. So surely all laws might be abandoned if that is a valid argument for not having the death penalty?

The thing is that deterrence is not the only purpose of a sentence. We put burglars in prison so that they can't commit any more burglaries whilst inside. Even if it did not deter (dubious) it would still be worth doing. Same with life sentences and the death penalty, in both cases, random civilians cannot be killed so they are equal in this regard.

 

Secondly your point about it being "no deterrent" is not quite right. Being punished clearly is a deterrent to at least some people. The thing is that the death penalty is probably no more of a deterrent than a lengthy prison sentence. 


Edited by Northern Sol, 26 June 2013 - 11:31 AM.


#236 Johnoco

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 12:18 PM

Actually, as an anarchist, i do believe in the abolition of all laws.

Thought you were a Marxist or Communist?

#237 Johnoco

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 12:20 PM

That can be reversed though nobody would suggest the way to solve burglary is to have a state sponsored burglar go round robbing the houses of the convicted. The problem with this eye for an eye thing is it does more harm to us as a society than it does to the criminals.

I don't actually agree with the death penalty. I am just finding that a lot of the arguments I used to use against it don't necessarily stack up.

#238 JohnM

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 12:46 PM

Actually, as an anarchist, i do believe in the abolition of all laws.

 

is that a law you actually live by?  Is there an Anarchist Rugby League Team?



#239 Phil

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 01:03 PM

Thought you were a Marxist or Communist?

 

 

I'll pm you, don't want to derail the thread into political theory.


"Freedom without socialism is privilege and injustice, socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality" - Mikhail Bakunin

#240 Wolford6

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 01:03 PM

This thread is about the death penalty for incidents of premeditated murder.

 

As most culture vultures know, it was an Accidental Death of an Anarchist.

[It actually was murder]


Edited by Wolford6, 26 June 2013 - 01:20 PM.

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