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the death penalty


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#261 ckn

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 03:14 PM

Just occasionally, i read news stories that makes me consider my stance on the death penalty for extreme cases.  I read this story today and was beyond sickened, please do not read the detail in the link at the bottom of this link unless you really want to have a ###### day.

 

1.  How can anyone do this to a baby.

2.  How can anyone stand back and willingly allow someone else to do this to their baby.

 

It's not often that I get vigilante feelings but this is one case.


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#262 Methven Hornet

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 03:33 PM

Just occasionally, i read news stories that makes me consider my stance on the death penalty for extreme cases.  I read this story today and was beyond sickened, please do not read the detail in the link at the bottom of this link unless you really want to have a ###### day.

 

1.  How can anyone do this to a baby.

2.  How can anyone stand back and willingly allow someone else to do this to their baby.

 

It's not often that I get vigilante feelings but this is one case.

I haven't read the link but I can imagine the barbarity, and, to be honest, I could take someone like that apart, very slowly, piece-by-piece, with a very blunt knife. An individual's reaction based upon horror and disgust, though, is very different to how a state, through its criminal justice system, should act.


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#263 Johnoco

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 03:35 PM

I haven't read the link but I can imagine the barbarity, and, to be honest, I could take someone like that apart, very slowly, piece-by-piece, with a very blunt knife. An individual's reaction based upon horror and disgust, though, is very different to how a state, through its criminal justice system, should act.

Why?

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#264 Martyn Sadler

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 03:42 PM

I haven't read the link but I can imagine the barbarity, and, to be honest, I could take someone like that apart, very slowly, piece-by-piece, with a very blunt knife. An individual's reaction based upon horror and disgust, though, is very different to how a state, through its criminal justice system, should act.

I feel like you, and similarly don't want to read the details.

 

But if the individual who committed this act were to be executed I would shed no tears at all.

 

Some crimes are so horrific that I believe that the individuals who commit them are beyond redemption.



#265 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 04:33 PM

I feel like you, and similarly don't want to read the details.

But if the individual who committed this act were to be executed I would shed no tears at all.

Some crimes are so horrific that I believe that the individuals who commit them are beyond redemption.


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#266 Johnoco

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 06:10 PM

True
And if they are found guilty they should join the group of lifers who will never be released

But given what they have done, why do they have the right to still exist? Surely there is a point whereby you commit such heinous crimes you should have your own worthless life forfeited?

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#267 Severus

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 06:17 PM

But given what they have done, why do they have the right to still exist? Surely there is a point whereby you commit such heinous crimes you should have your own worthless life forfeited?


No there isn't. We are going round in circles here.

I'm with Martin, I wouldn't shed a year if this man met his end and soon, but I strongly disagree with the death penalty.
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#268 Johnoco

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 07:45 PM

No there isn't. We are going round in circles here.

I'm with Martin, I wouldn't shed a year if this man met his end and soon, but I strongly disagree with the death penalty.

So anyone can commit any number of revolting crimes and they are effectively guaranteed to be protected? I can't accept that.

Look at the vermin that did this. They will be caged. People will be told their is no money for their cancer treatment, old people will freeze for fear of the heating bills, yet the money to keep these #### will always be found. Why *can't* we just take them out? What is the benefit in keeping them alive? Who would give a flying one if they were executed?

No I don't care if you're if you're into different bands

No cause for so much hatred, I'm just a different man

Pull off that cover, I will too, and learn to understand

With music deep inside we'll make world unity our plan

 

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#269 Severus

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 01:39 AM

Certainly not me, but it is becoming a recurring, and very boring thread in discussions on here, and it always the same people spouting the same nonsense.

Not a thought at all for the victims of these scumbags, but all the pity in the world for the poor things who will be in prison for the rest of their lives.

The world, or more particularly a few posters on here, has gone mad.

I don't quite get what you are saying. People on both sides of this discussion has expressed pity and sorrow for the victims of the heinous crimes that have been discussed. However, when deciding whether the death penalty is appropriate for a society to implement there are other issues that need to be taken into account.

There's an assumption that incarceration is an easy ride when it is nothing of the sort. The loss of liberty for the rest of your life is an extreme punishment and quite rightly so in the case of the criminals that are being discussed. Life behind bars is a miserable existence, just look at what happened to the killer of April Jones.

Edited by Severus, 11 July 2013 - 01:42 AM.

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#270 Severus

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 08:51 AM

I shouldn't have to care about the killer of April Jones, he should already be underground.


I'm not saying you should, and FWIW I don't.

Edited by Severus, 11 July 2013 - 08:51 AM.

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#271 Johnoco

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 09:49 AM

Apparently European judges have deemed it ' 'degrading and inhuman' for anyone to serve a whole life sentence. So what now?

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#272 John Drake

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 09:53 AM

Good article by Grace Dent in The Independent. Sums up my own views.

Appalled by the fuss over human rights for serial killers? Try Dubai

"I live in Britain – not Dubai, not Hong Kong, not Moscow – and will never leave, and love my country, because at its heart it is civilised, fair and mindful about the concept of human rights. It does this on my behalf, even during the times I may feel wholly savage."

http://www.independe...ai-8700709.html


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#273 ckn

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 10:02 AM

Apparently European judges have deemed it ' 'degrading and inhuman' for anyone to serve a whole life sentence. So what now?

That's a media over-reaction, what the court actually said was that you can sentence someone to an eternity in prison on the condition that you review that as time goes on, you can't have a system that says we're locking you up forever and never giving it another review.  That review could fairly be once every 20 years with the criminal being given a rant then told "review rejected".

 

The problem that they have in the ECHR is that they're a precedent setting body for every one of the 47 countries in the Council of Europe.  Take, for example, if the case had gone the other way, there are countries in the Council of Europe who still lock up people for political "crimes", these people would have had no right for review of their case if the ECHR agreed with the UK that states should be able to lock up people and throw away the key without review.

 

If you set a court of appeal to set minimum standards for 47 separate countries then don't complain when you're set minimum standards that have in mind potential abuses by those countries with lower standards of human rights.


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#274 Johnoco

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 10:26 AM

That's a media over-reaction, what the court actually said was that you can sentence someone to an eternity in prison on the condition that you review that as time goes on, you can't have a system that says we're locking you up forever and never giving it another review. That review could fairly be once every 20 years with the criminal being given a rant then told "review rejected".

The problem that they have in the ECHR is that they're a precedent setting body for every one of the 47 countries in the Council of Europe. Take, for example, if the case had gone the other way, there are countries in the Council of Europe who still lock up people for political "crimes", these people would have had no right for review of their case if the ECHR agreed with the UK that states should be able to lock up people and throw away the key without review.

If you set a court of appeal to set minimum standards for 47 separate countries then don't complain when you're set minimum standards that have in mind potential abuses by those countries with lower standards of human rights.

Newspapers being newspapers I imagine there is a bit of exaggeration thrown in.
But at the core of it lies the truth. If they decide we cannot keep people like the Ripper locked up indefinitely, then that's that.

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No cause for so much hatred, I'm just a different man

Pull off that cover, I will too, and learn to understand

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#275 Johnoco

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 10:29 AM

Good article by Grace Dent in The Independent. Sums up my own views.
Appalled by the fuss over human rights for serial killers? Try Dubai
"I live in Britain – not Dubai, not Hong Kong, not Moscow – and will never leave, and love my country, because at its heart it is civilised, fair and mindful about the concept of human rights. It does this on my behalf, even during the times I may feel wholly savage."
http://www.independe...ai-8700709.html

So we base our response to repugnant, evil murderers on what allows Grace Dent to sleep at night?
She doesn't lose any sleep about children like April Jones being killed by such people, what's *really* important is how we treat the murderers. Insane

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No cause for so much hatred, I'm just a different man

Pull off that cover, I will too, and learn to understand

With music deep inside we'll make world unity our plan

 

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#276 ckn

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 10:33 AM

Newspapers being newspapers I imagine there is a bit of exaggeration thrown in.
But at the core of it lies the truth. If they decide we cannot keep people like the Ripper locked up indefinitely, then that's that.

That's the other part that was ignored by the media.  The ECHR did not say that you cannot keep people locked up indefinitely but did say you must give them a review occasionally.  That review can be short and sweet with a "nope, still no chance" verdict as long as you are objectively fair in that decision.  In reality, anyone with a whole life sentence will never get released even if they're given yearly reviews.


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#277 John Drake

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 10:41 AM

So we base our response to repugnant, evil murderers on what allows Grace Dent to sleep at night?
She doesn't lose any sleep about children like April Jones being killed by such people, what's *really* important is how we treat the murderers. Insane

 

That's not the point she's making at all, John.

 

Opposing the death penalty - as I do - does not automatically mean that I approve of people who kill children, or anyone else for that matter.

 

If the death penalty was effective in any way shape or form in preventing people from killing children or anyone else, it is likely it would never have been abolished in the first place.


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#278 Johnoco

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 10:49 AM

John, as I have stated before, I know you won't prevent certain sick people from doing stuff.
It's about whether it is justified that they lose their life by committing such acts. I don't see the benefit in keeping amoeba like that baby killer alive, just get rid.
And I don't buy the argument that it 'makes us as bad as them', not for a second.

No I don't care if you're if you're into different bands

No cause for so much hatred, I'm just a different man

Pull off that cover, I will too, and learn to understand

With music deep inside we'll make world unity our plan

 

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#279 John Drake

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 11:50 AM

John, as I have stated before, I know you won't prevent certain sick people from doing stuff.
It's about whether it is justified that they lose their life by committing such acts. I don't see the benefit in keeping amoeba like that baby killer alive, just get rid.
And I don't buy the argument that it 'makes us as bad as them', not for a second.

 

I understand your viewpoint, even though I don't share it. But I'll never be convinced the death penalty is the answer to anything. I don't think it would save any lives and I don't think it would save any money. Imagine the cost of the endless appeals against it in each and every case. It would make a handful of lawyers even richer than they probably already are. So, if it doesn't prevent crimes and it doesn't save money, and leaving aside the potential for miscarriages of justice which can never be completely ruled out in a system run by fallible human beings, that just leaves vengeance as a reason for having it, and I'd rather that wasn't part of our justice system at all.


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#280 bedlam breakout

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 05:02 PM

yet again another week of news bulletins full of storys of child killers and other murder trials, same next week? and the week after? and.......................................................................


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