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the death penalty


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436 replies to this topic

#21 gingerjon

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 08:10 PM

I'm pretty sure I'm against the death penalty. However, I wouldn't want to much investigation into certain people if they fell down a lot of concrete stairs.

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#22 JohnM

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 08:16 PM

im afraid these liberal views are making your society a lot less "civilised" than it should be, a percentage of society are no better than animals.

 

State killing demeans society and thus demeans us all. 

 

In any case, it is not going to happen, not now, not tomorrow, not ever. 



#23 bedlam breakout

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 08:20 PM

the british government give the order to kill everyday its called the army


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#24 Stan Doffarf

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 08:23 PM

They have capital punishment in the USA. It doesn't work, and can only be justified if you believe that pure vengeance equates to justice.

 

Anyway, I may be wrong but isn't it incompatible with EU membership?


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#25 Johnoco

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 08:24 PM

State killing demeans society and thus demeans us all.

In any case, it is not going to happen, not now, not tomorrow, not ever.

Yet if a guy rings for two policewomen, shoot them in cold blood *his* right to life is sacrosanct? What about our right to not have such #### in our towns znd cities?
In what universe or plane is that just?

#26 bedlam breakout

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 08:39 PM

Yet if a guy rings for two policewomen, shoot them in cold blood *his* right to life is sacrosanct? What about our right to not have such #### in our towns znd cities?
In what universe or plane is that just?

if I had done that I would readily accept that I had to face the big anaesthetic , I wouldn't protest at all


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#27 Johnoco

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 08:50 PM

They have capital punishment in the USA. It doesn't work, and can only be justified if you believe that pure vengeance equates to justice.

Anyway, I may be wrong but isn't it incompatible with EU membership?

Why is it necessarily about pure vengeance? How about, don't kill people in cold blood but if you do, expect to possibly forego your right to live.

Sounds fair

#28 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 09:02 PM

im afraid these liberal views are making your society a lot less "civilised" than it should be, a percentage of society are no better than animals.

worked in the penal system for 15 years with some of the most dangerous disturbed young criminals inn the country

wrote the biography of a former gangster who now works with the police oninitiatives  preventing youngsters getting into trouble. He related to me in graphic detail and I wrote about them

 

I aint no liberal when it comes to dealing with dangerous criminals. I've seen the inside of many prisons of various categories

On an emotional level I ould like to see someof the creatures you are talking about ripped apart limb from limb. On a rational level Ithink just the opposite. Decent people need protecting from dangerous people and that's the fundamental thing that prison does, and that's incidentally why there are people in prison who shouldnt be. I'm an animal lover and the comparison between these people ad animals is at best lazy.

I think the opposite for all the reasons that have been discussed over and over since forever, hence my original response.


Edited by l'angelo mysterioso, 14 June 2013 - 09:06 PM.

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#29 Phil

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 09:03 PM

Whatever the fevered imaginations of right-wing journalists say, prison is not an easy option. Yes there are "privileges" but they have to be earned by good and co-operative behaviour and may be rescinded at any time.

 

The vast majority of murders take place in the heat of the moment within the victims family or peer group, the french even have a defence based on "crime passionel"

There is no reliable evidence to prove that the death penalty acts as a deterrent, the example of the USA has already been quoted and the number of people who would have been executed over the last few years who were subsequently found not guilty is enough surely to put a doubt in the head of the fiercest proponent of hanging, Timothy Evans, the Birmingham 6, the Guildford 4, Stefan Kiszko enough to be going on with?

 

Edited changed victors to victims*


Edited by Phil, 15 June 2013 - 11:36 AM.

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#30 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 09:05 PM

Whatever the fevered imaginations of right-wing journalists say, prison is not an easy option. Yes there are "privileges" but they have to be earned by good and co-operative behaviour and may be rescinded at any time.

 

The vast majority of murders take place in the heat of the moment within the victors family or peer group, the french even have a defence based on "crime passionel"

There is no reliable evidence to prove that the death penalty acts as a deterrent, the example of the USA has already been quoted and the number of people who would have been executed over the last few years who were subsequently found not guilty is enough surely to put a doubt in the head of the fiercest proponent of hanging, Timothy Evans, the Birmingham 6, the Guildford 4, Stefan Kiszko enough to be going on with?

I agree with what youre saying Phil

but I dont think crime passionel exists any more in France


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#31 Johnoco

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 09:19 PM

Not everyone convicted of murder was executed. So who is to say that the G4 etc egc would have been executed?
I remain to he convinced that keeping certain killers alive serves any purpose whatsoever.
Nb we are not talking about the wider penal system here but specifically killers like Cregan

Edited by Johnoco, 14 June 2013 - 09:19 PM.


#32 GeordieSaint

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 09:21 PM

the british government give the order to kill everyday its called the army

 

I think the RAF and RN wouldn't be happy being ignored from that list.


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#33 Shadow

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 10:25 PM

 We need protection from such ####
 

Keeping them locked up for life protects just as effectively as killing them, with the added bonus of being able to release them if you get the wrong person.

Killing or locking up or any other punishement doesn't protect us unless you're advocating killing them before any crime has been committed. If the death penalty existed then Cregan's victims would be just as dead.


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#34 Johnoco

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 10:35 PM

Yeah Shadow, the victims are dead so that's that. Just as long as we feel superior about it. It may also tell any future Cregans 'do it. .but at your peril'

Edited by Johnoco, 14 June 2013 - 10:36 PM.


#35 Northern Sol

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 11:09 PM

Not everyone convicted of murder was executed. So who is to say that the G4 etc egc would have been executed?
 

I seem to remember that the judge said that if he could, he would have passed the death sentence, if it wasn't the G4 then it was the B6.



#36 Johnoco

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 08:07 AM

I seem to remember that the judge said that if he could, he would have passed the death sentence, if it wasn't the G4 then it was the B6.

I don't necessarily agree with the death sentence. But I think it could possibly be an option in certain circumstances.
I also don't think it is fair to guarantee that people can kill and regardless of their actions their life is held sacred, I really don't.

#37 Griff9of13

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 08:26 AM

I'm firmly in the no camp.

 

  1. It's non reversible, so mistakes can't be rectified.
  2. It doesn't work as a deterrent, you only need to look at countries where they still have the death penalty, and guess what? Murders still get committed.
  3. If you agree that murder is wrong, how can you argue that the state murdering someone is right?
  4. It's too easy an option for the perpetrators of the crime; a couple of days/weeks/months awaiting the dreaded moment (and that moment being painless and relatively dignified) against a whole lifetime knowing they will never know freedom again?

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#38 Johnoco

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 08:36 AM

Come on Griff, how many murderers stay in prison for life?
And why is it murder if someone like cregan is taken out? To me it would be a good idea.

#39 tonyXIII

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 08:43 AM

Whatever the fevered imaginations of right-wing journalists say, prison is not an easy option. Yes there are "privileges" but they have to be earned by good and co-operative behaviour and may be rescinded at any time.

 

The vast majority of murders take place in the heat of the moment within the victors family or peer group, the french even have a defence based on "crime passionel"

There is no reliable evidence to prove that the death penalty acts as a deterrent, the example of the USA has already been quoted and the number of people who would have been executed over the last few years who were subsequently found not guilty is enough surely to put a doubt in the head of the fiercest proponent of hanging, Timothy Evans, the Birmingham 6, the Guildford 4, Stefan Kiszko enough to be going on with?

 

Fully agree with the rest of your post, Phil, but there are two points regarding the first paragraph.

 

I am sure that, for most of us, prison would not be an easy option, but it is clearly not so hard as to put some criminals off crime. Furthermore, public perception is an important issue and does need to be addressed in some way. If the public perception is wrong, then 'we' have to find a way to correct that perception.

 

Secondly, the issue of reward for good behaviour. I don't think it is as simple as that. In a recent TV programme about Aylesbury YOI (?), a prison officer justified the privileges not as a reward for good behaviour, but more as a bribe to keep the prisoners 'on-side'. He said something along the lines of 'If we didn't give them recreation facilities and TVs, they would be unmanageable and the prison officers' job would be impossible.' So, not simply a reward.


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#40 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 08:45 AM

Come on Griff, how many murderers stay in prison for life?
And why is it murder if someone like cregan is taken out? To me it would be a good idea.

Cregan: the guy who killed his fellow gangsters and the police officers will

 

people who are given a life sentence don't ncssarily serve their entire sentence in prison , it varies with the individual: but a life sentence is exactly that. Such prisoners ae on licence fo lifeand can be reimprisoned immediately for he slightest indiscretion or change in circumstances as the authorities see fi andthere are clear strit restrictions on what such prisoners can do and where they can got. You might or migt not agree with this. I'm just passing on the facts.


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