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the death penalty


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#41 Johnoco

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 08:47 AM

To us, prison would be a terrible thing. For most habitual criminals its just a blip and as they say, an occupational hazard.
I know several.

#42 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 08:50 AM

Fully agree with the rest of your post, Phil, but there are two points regarding the first paragraph.

 

I am sure that, for most of us, prison would not be an easy option, but it is clearly not so hard as to put some criminals off crime. Furthermore, public perception is an important issue and does need to be addressed in some way. If the public perception is wrong, then 'we' have to find a way to correct that perception.

 

Secondly, the issue of reward for good behaviour. I don't think it is as simple as that. In a recent TV programme about Aylesbury YOI (?), a prison officer justified the privileges not as a reward for good behaviour, but more as a bribe to keep the prisoners 'on-side'. He said something along the lines of 'If we didn't give them recreation facilities and TVs, they would be unmanageable and the prison officers' job would be impossible.' So, not simply a reward.

then the prison officer expressed himself badly

 

but there is a point to what he says: having such a structure is a manangement technique in a difficult working environment for those dealing with these people, and the 'bribe' can be taken away when circumstances ie the pisoners' conduct warrants it.

Out of interest, what do you think that a privilege system is supposed to do?


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#43 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 08:52 AM

To us, prison would be a terrible thing. For most habitual criminals its just a blip and as they say, an occupational hazard.
I know several.

I know many

if prison is an occupational hazard for thedse people then you have to ask qhy it word be only slightly less worthwhile to life on the out.

Prison is also a dumping ground for the menbtally ill and the sociallyindequate.


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#44 Johnoco

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 08:58 AM

I know many
if prison is an occupational hazard for thedse people then you have to ask qhy it word be only slightly less worthwhile to life on the out.
Prison is also a dumping ground for the menbtally ill and the sociallyindequate.

I agree the prison system has many problems. But to many, a hellhole it isnt.

#45 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 09:07 AM

I agree the prison system has many problems. But to many, a hellhole it isnt.

it isn't supposed to be a hellhole

 

people return to prison for a variety of reasons one of them being that life in prison as you imply is only slightly worse than lif outside. This poses the question about what value these people place on life outside, although most criminals commit crime thinking they wont get caught. 

If you think that worsening prison conditionswill prevent people from reoffending you might be in for a shock: also you would be making he job of the people who work in the system so much worse.


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#46 tonyXIII

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 09:10 AM

then the prison officer expressed himself badly

 

but there is a point to what he says: having such a structure is a manangement technique in a difficult working environment for those dealing with these people, and the 'bribe' can be taken away when circumstances ie the pisoners' conduct warrants it.

Out of interest, what do you think that a privilege system is supposed to do?

 

That was a single quote from two hours of programme and probably, as I said, not an accurate one. However, as you go on to accept, he made his point, so he didn't express himself too badly.

 

As for the rest of your post, I think you are picking up on my use of 'bribe'. If we start playing semantics, we'll be here all day. I was making the point that if the 'reward' precedes the action, it is more of a bribe; whereas, if it follows the action, it is more of a reward. It's more complicated, because the promise of a later reward for a given action is also seen as a bribe, even though the reward follows the action.

 

Within the prison system, where there are violent inmates, I'd pretty much go along with whatever the guys at the coal face deem appropriate or necessary to maintain a degree of order.


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#47 tonyXIII

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 09:18 AM

I know many

if prison is an occupational hazard for thedse people then you have to ask qhy it word be only slightly less worthwhile to life on the out.

Prison is also a dumping ground for the menbtally ill and the sociallyindequate.

 

Nice sidestep, l'ang! The thread was about the death penalty and, specifically, Cregan. It morphed slightly to include a discussion of life sentences and their implications. It was never about society's treatment of the mentally ill or socially inadequate. That is a totally different issue. Those people deserve help, not dumping in a potentially dangerous situation like prison.


Edited by tonyXIII, 15 June 2013 - 09:18 AM.

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#48 Johnoco

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 09:27 AM

it isn't supposed to be a hellhole

people return to prison for a variety of reasons one of them being that life in prison as you imply is only slightly worse than lif outside. This poses the question about what value these people place on life outside, although most criminals commit crime thinking they wont get caught.
If you think that worsening prison conditionswill prevent people from reoffending you might be in for a shock: also you would be making he job of the people who work in the system so much worse.

So why are re offending rates so high today then? Clearly they aren't scared of going back.
Part of the problem is that so many prisoners 'know their rights' thus making it extremely difficult for prison staff to do their jobs for fear of not following the letter of the law.

#49 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 09:46 AM

That was a single quote from two hours of programme and probably, as I said, not an accurate one. However, as you go on to accept, he made his point, so he didn't express himself too badly.

 

As for the rest of your post, I think you are picking up on my use of 'bribe'. If we start playing semantics, we'll be here all day. I was making the point that if the 'reward' precedes the action, it is more of a bribe; whereas, if it follows the action, it is more of a reward. It's more complicated, because the promise of a later reward for a given action is also seen as a bribe, even though the reward follows the action.

 

Within the prison system, where there are violent inmates, I'd pretty much go along with whatever the guys at the coal face deem appropriate or necessary to maintain a degree of order.

 

 

That was a single quote from two hours of programme and probably, as I said, not an accurate one. However, as you go on to accept, he made his point, so he didn't express himself too badly.

 

As for the rest of your post, I think you are picking up on my use of 'bribe'. If we start playing semantics, we'll be here all day. I was making the point that if the 'reward' precedes the action, it is more of a bribe; whereas, if it follows the action, it is more of a reward. It's more complicated, because the promise of a later reward for a given action is also seen as a bribe, even though the reward follows the action.

 

Within the prison system, where there are violent inmates, I'd pretty much go along with whatever the guys at the coal face deem appropriate or necessary to maintain a degree of order.

from experience thereward does not precede the action. That would be unworkable

not playing semantics


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#50 Li0nhead

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 12:43 PM

They have capital punishment in the USA. It doesn't work, and can only be justified if you believe that pure vengeance equates to justice.

 

Anyway, I may be wrong but isn't it incompatible with EU membership?

 

So we get kicked out of the EU if we bring it in? Hang on a sec i am phoning UKIP with a policy idea....

 

:)

 

Ok back to the issue of the thread:

 

Sure bring it back. While were at it why not bring in torture for suspects being investigated for these sort of crimes where there is no doubt in the Police mind as they are going to get the death penalty anyway....

See you start heading down a slippery slope. 



#51 fieldofclothofgold

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 01:10 PM

We have come a long way from burning at the stake and hanging drawing and quatering to the abolition of capital punishment.Apart from it being uncivilised, there must have been any innocents hung.No its gone forever


but you and I weve been through that and this is not our fate.
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#52 Northern Sol

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 01:15 PM

So we get kicked out of the EU if we bring it in? Hang on a sec i am phoning UKIP with a policy idea....

 

:)

 

Ok back to the issue of the thread:

 

Sure bring it back. While were at it why not bring in torture for suspects being investigated for these sort of crimes where there is no doubt in the Police mind as they are going to get the death penalty anyway....

See you start heading down a slippery slope. 

I'm not in favour of capital punishment but one thing I really hate is the "slippery slope" argument.

 

Applied the opposite way, it runs like "So we can't execute them 'cos that would be cruel and life sentences don't necessarily mean a life spent inside prison, how long is it before murderers are given day release on security tags and not sent to prison at all - it's a slippery slope I tell thee - hang them all before the liberal scumbags get a chance to set them back on the streets again".



#53 Johnoco

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 01:47 PM

We have come a long way from burning at the stake and hanging drawing and quatering to the abolition of capital punishment.Apart from it being uncivilised, there must have been any innocents hung.No its gone forever

Question; how many innocent people have been killed by murderers released from prison? I dont know the figure but don't they count as innocent lives lost? (Ie had the perpetrator been executed those people would still be alive)

As I say, I don't think I actually support the death sentence but don't buy the argument that murderers lives are sacrosanct and we become as bad as them. I could go out tonight and get stabbed, die but the person who did it is guaranteed to be safe. Why? Is it civilised to say to me 'you can go out but you risk someone stabbing you' but to have the perpetrators life safeguarded? I'm sorry but that isn't fair in my eyes.

#54 JohnM

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 02:15 PM

True enough: there is a lot that is not fair in and around the criminal justice system especially in the victim/criminal balance and sadly I don't think much is going to change any time soon.



#55 bedlam breakout

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 02:23 PM

how much does it cost to keep one child killer in prison for 30 years?


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#56 JohnM

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 03:18 PM

I see what you mean. so here's an idea then.  Work out the cost of the crime and if the cost of a prison sentence for it is greater, kill the criminal.  However, If the cost of the penalty is less than the cost of the crime then let the criminal go free.

 

Some US evidence.
A comparison of the annual number of murders in death penalty states and in non-death penalty states from 1990 to 2007 shows that there are consistently more murders in states which use the death penalty. The  percentage difference ranged from a low of 4% in 1990 to a high of 46% in 2006. In other words, in 2006  there were 46% more murders in states with the death penalty than in states which do not use the death  penalty. In 2007, the difference was 42%.
 
 
so by introducing the death penalty, there is a real risk that more innocent people will be killed.


#57 Trojan

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 03:59 PM

I'm old enough to remember the death penalty. I was always opposed to it.  As has been said there have been too many mistakes in the past.  The argument is that we now have scientific evidence. The Birmingham "bombers" were put away on false scientific evidence - and would have been hung.  There are cases - Cregan is one - where the death penalty would be the best solution.

I think Peter Sutcliffe should have faced the death penalty for what he did. I don't think such creatures are fit to live. But who draws the line between those who deserve to die and those who don't? Bentley and Craig were involved on the same criminal act.  Bentley who was unarmed and under arrest at the time of the murder hung because he was over 18. Craig who actually shot the copper was under 18 and wasn't hung.  Coppers there at the scene said Bentley said "Let him have it Chris" but it was only the coppers who heard this statement, none of the other witnesses heard it.  The police had (have?) a culture - one of theirs for one of ours.  Bentley paid the price.  There are plenty more examples from the days of the death penalty of anomalies costing someone their life. 

On the whole we're better off without it. And as has been said on here already, some states in the US have it, some don't, the murder rate seems to be similar whether they have it or don't, so it's not a deterrent.  Killing is wrong no matter who does it ( I include abortion and euthenasia in that statement) 


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#58 bedlam breakout

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 04:01 PM

to keep that "one" child killer in prison for 30 years costs over a million pounds, a syringe however costs pennys - old people, no sorry honest old people die in their homes because they cant afford to put the gas fire on while the money goes in to toasting the toes of absolute ####.


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#59 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 04:07 PM

So why are re offending rates so high today then? Clearly they aren't scared of going back.
Part of the problem is that so many prisoners 'know their rights' thus making it extremely difficult for prison staff to do their jobs for fear of not following the letter of the law.

reoffending rtes are high for a few reasons

 

you'll find that reoffending rates are high for some crime and not for others

for those crimes you'll find tat there are common denominators-drug abuse and the criminal activity associted with it, alcohol, social inadequacy, personality disorders, mental illness and so on. Reoffending amongst tax avoiders, corrupt politician, embezzlers and so on is very low.


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#60 Maximus Decimus

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 04:08 PM

to keep that "one" child killer in prison for 30 years costs over a million pounds, a syringe however costs pennys - old people, no sorry honest old people die in their homes because they cant afford to put the gas fire on while the money goes in to toasting the toes of absolute ####.

This is not true. The legal costs of execution are very high, they might not be the same as a child killer but it certainly isn't pennies. If you read this article http://www.guardian....xecution-costs, it states that each execution in California costs $300m each. Amnesty international points out that the costs regularly outweigh incarceration.

The death penalty is simply revenge, it has no place as a deterrent. I can't imagine that there is anybody about to kill someone thinking "well if I'm caught I'll only get 15 years in prison."




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