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Yorkshire v Lancashire really 'failed' didn't it?


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#41 Scubby

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 11:26 AM

Oops


Edited by Scubby, 15 June 2013 - 11:27 AM.


#42 Pottsy

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 11:33 AM

England A v England B provides no appeal at all. That's why no other sport used it. Sport is about tribalism, rivalry and, yes, parochialism!

#43 Pottsy

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 11:38 AM

Right, here's my three steps to heaven:

Representative Window One:
War of the Roses: Lancs v Yorks (Leeds)
Cumbria v Exiles (Whitehaven/Workington)

Rep Window Two:
England v Exiles
France v Wales

Rep Window Three (to coincide with an Origin week in Oz):
NZ v England


In this scenario, every game would represent another step up the ladder for the England players and there'd be meaningful games for the public to get their teeth into.

#44 Wellsy4HullFC

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 12:01 PM

Right, here's my three steps to heaven:

Representative Window One:
War of the Roses: Lancs v Yorks (Leeds)
Cumbria v Exiles (Whitehaven/Workington)

Rep Window Two:
England v Exiles
France v Wales

Rep Window Three (to coincide with an Origin week in Oz):
NZ v England


In this scenario, every game would represent another step up the ladder for the England players and there'd be meaningful games for the public to get their teeth into.

What happened to Cumbia vs The South?

Week 1:
Yorkshire vs Lancashire
Cumbria vs The South
North East vs The Midlands

France vs Wales
Scotland vs Ireland

Week 2:
New Zealand vs England
Papua New Guinea vs England Knights

Wales vs France
Ireland vs Scotland
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#45 Mumby Magic

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 12:11 PM

........and what about playing internationals?

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#46 Wellsy4HullFC

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 12:21 PM

........and what about playing internationals?

Who can England play that's a test?

That's what it all comes down.
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#47 Ponterover

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 12:25 PM

What it boils down to for me is that I care about whether Yorkshire beat Lancashire and will pay to go and watch.

 

I don't care whether England beat "The Exiles" and would not pay to watch.



#48 yanto

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 12:55 PM

Hmmm....... SOO was a massive concept when it first started.....NOT.....BUT they stuck with it (OK tweaked it here and there) to make it what it is today.

We bin ideas after two or three years and never give them time to grow.

 

 

After Queensland lost the first two interstate matches in 1980 (35–3 and 17–7, the second game in front of only 1,638 Sydneysiders.

 

Australia's 1978 captain Bob Fulton called the match "the non-event of the century"

 

By the 1970s the prestige of interstate matches had been seriously downgraded

 

The New South Wales media gave both the event, and Queensland's chance of winning it, little credence, calling the game a "three day wonder".

 

Matches were played mid-week, so as not to interfere with the Sydney club competition, and the small crowds in New South Wales were hosted at suburban grounds.

 

 Interstate football reached its nadir in 1977 when the New South Wales Rugby Football League (NSWRFL) declined to host the Queensland team, and both interstate games were played in Queensland.

 

Three Sydney clubs remained opposed to the plan: St. George DragonsSouth Sydney Rabbitohs and Eastern Suburbs Roosters. As these clubs were refusing to release players.

 

However, in 1985, under the leadership of captain Steve Mortimer, New South Wales won the deciding match in front of 29,068 spectators at the Sydney Cricket Ground, claiming the series for the first time.


Edited by yanto, 15 June 2013 - 12:55 PM.


#49 Pottsy

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 01:07 PM

A

Edited by Pottsy, 15 June 2013 - 01:12 PM.


#50 Pottsy

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 01:10 PM

What happened to Cumbia vs The South?

Week 1:
Yorkshire vs Lancashire
Cumbria vs The South
North East vs The Midlands

France vs Wales
Scotland vs Ireland

Week 2:
New Zealand vs England
Papua New Guinea vs England Knights

Wales vs France
Ireland vs Scotland

Cumbria vs Exiles is a far more appealing fixture; it gives the people of Cumbria the chance to see Super League stars and also battle hardens to Exiles ahead of the England game.

Realistically, a team representing the South would consist solely of Broncos players, lads from the Championships who didn't make it at the Broncos and one or two players who progressed beyond Broncos. It'd be more of a high school reunion than a rep game.

Midlands v Northeast is great but it'd realistically be a community level game.

NZ v Eng is viable mid season because half out stars are based in the NRL. England Knights would be better staying at home and playing France; flying half of Super League Down Under when there are suitable alternatives closer to home hardly smacks of financial prudence.

Edited by Pottsy, 15 June 2013 - 01:12 PM.


#51 Pottsy

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 01:10 PM

B

Edited by Pottsy, 15 June 2013 - 01:11 PM.


#52 Just to be clear

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 01:15 PM

B

Just to be c

Edited by Just to be clear, 15 June 2013 - 01:15 PM.


#53 Wellsy4HullFC

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 01:46 PM

Cumbria vs Exiles is a far more appealing fixture; it gives the people of Cumbria the chance to see Super League stars and also battle hardens to Exiles ahead of the England game.

Realistically, a team representing the South would consist solely of Broncos players, lads from the Championships who didn't make it at the Broncos and one or two players who progressed beyond Broncos. It'd be more of a high school reunion than a rep game.

Midlands v Northeast is great but it'd realistically be a community level game.

Maybe the Exiles could play Wales or France then?
I think if we're going to have English regions playing, they should be playing other English regions. I think that should be the whole point of the weekend.

Yeah, the South may be mainly Broncos players (but not exclusively), but it may grow.
And yeah the Midlands vs North East would start off as mainly semi-pro and amateurs for now, but again something to grow and something that completes the cycle of games.

NZ v Eng is viable mid season because half out stars are based in the NRL. England Knights would be better staying at home and playing France; flying half of Super League Down Under when there are suitable alternatives closer to home hardly smacks of financial prudence.

I think the idea would be to get all the players in the same training camp and getting that experience of touring together. Getting used to playing at the other side of the world.

In fact, I'd change it to New Zealand Maori vs England Knights actually. That'd be far better for the players to get used to a tough fixture away from home in front of a hostile atmosphere where the result wouldn't be known.
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#54 deluded pom?

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 01:58 PM

Hmmm....... SOO was a massive concept when it first started.....NOT.....BUT they stuck with it (OK tweaked it here and there) to make it what it is today.

We bin ideas after two or three years and never give them time to grow.

 

 

After Queensland lost the first two interstate matches in 1980 (35–3 and 17–7, the second game in front of only 1,638 Sydneysiders.

The first two games in 1980 were played under the old rules whereby Queenslanders playing in Sydney represented NSW. The final game of 1980 was the first ever SoO match and was played in front of a sell out crowd of 33,210. Hardly a good example of a slow burning concept.


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#55 Maximus Decimus

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 02:01 PM

I'm sorry but it doesn't follow that the Exiles is a failure but because the Roses clashes got a few hundred more for the final game that they were not a failure.

 

The only thing that can be drawn from the Exiles game is the remarkable parallel that it has created with the Roses clashes. It started at Headingly with a moderate crowd, was expanded to two games that didn't work and then went back down to one game. It was also noted for its lack of intensity and atmosphere. It says a lot that there was no outcry when it was dropped.

 

I'm not a huge fan of the Exiles, I didn't watch it all last night for the reasons many people didn't. However, it actually serves a purpose. England get a warm up game against a team that are better than France or Wales but worse than the Kiwis or the Australians. One of our problems is that we have no preparation for the much higher level of intensity. Our players are up against it already but have to counter the fact that they don't play together often enough against high quality opposition.

 

Obviously, the Exiles is starting to lose its usefulness as the quality of imports decrease. Last night we scored tries we would never score against the Kangaroos and didn't have repeat set after repeat set on their line where we had to try and find a way to score against a well organised defence. That is our problem, playing France, Wales and now the Exiles results in tries where we don't need to unpick a tough defence.

 

The Roses clashes don't even have this usefulness. They will never be Origin, they have had every opportunity in the past to develop into a genuine rivalry and never did. There is also the giant elephant in the room that we have no big clubs in Lancashire anymore. I'm not a Lancastrian despite being told I should be, I'm from Cheshire. Widnes hasn't been in Lancashire for over 40 years and that's not going to get any better. Each generation will get less and less attached the idea that we are really from Lancashire.

 

It's funny how over 10 years on, the negative aspects and obvious flaws are forgotten and all its ills are blamed on the perennial excuses of poor marketing and giving up too early as if time is all something magically needs. Every bad RL crowd is blamed on marketing from the World Cup in 2000 to the failure of London to draw a crowd.

 

I look forward to the thread in 2023 calling for a return of the Exiles concept that was marketed badly and then dropped too early in its previous guise.



#56 Just Browny

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 02:01 PM

People are absolutely obsessed with this notion that the Exiles are on this downward trajectory: why not just concern ourselves with the here and now, for now? There are plenty of options for strengthening the Exiles. For one, they should have let French players participate from day one and they can still introduce that.

30-10 was not a flogging and Scubby needs to give his head a shake for that one. Almost Lobby-esque.

I can confirm 30+ less sales for Scotland vs Italy at Workington, after this afternoons test purchase for the Tonga match, £7.50 is extremely reasonable, however a £2.50 'delivery' fee for a walk in purchase is beyond taking the mickey, good luck with that, it's cheaper on the telly.


#57 Wellsy4HullFC

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 02:06 PM

How about if Yorkshire win, England play in their white kit in the international series that year and if Lancashire win England play in their red kit?
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#58 Pottsy

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 02:10 PM

I doubt very much that the RFL is going to fly in 30-40 players for one-off games. It's not like it'll be a 'training camp' more a case of hit & run, dir to the travel, jet lag etc.

The only reason a one off Test involving the full England team is looking slightly more viable is that so many of our very best players now play in the NRL.

Anyway, let's not get too bogged down debating the merits of things that aren't actually going to happen.

There'll probably be another Exiles game; it'll probably draw a poor crowd; we'll probably scrap it; and we'll then probably try something else.

Meanwhile the world keeps turning. Get yourself off the computer, out of the house and start living life, Wellsy lad ;)

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#59 Johnoco

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 02:11 PM

Perhaps it is hard for the players to raise their game and the intensity in front of half empty stadiums?

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#60 Maximus Decimus

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 02:11 PM

The first two games in 1980 were played under the old rules whereby Queenslanders playing in Sydney represented NSW. The final game of 1980 was the first ever SoO match and was played in front of a sell out crowd of 33,210. Hardly a good example of a slow burning concept.

 

It jumped from a crowd of 1,638 to a crowd of 33,000 purely because they persisted with the 3rd game.

 

It's worth pointing out that the biggest ever crowd for a Roses clash was 18,000 in 1900 and the next biggest was 15,000.

 

Before the interstate series became uncompetitive, NSW-QLD clashes used to regularly get 30, 40, 50k attendances. State of Origin didn't come from nowhere.






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