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Yorkshire v Lancashire really 'failed' didn't it?


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#61 Maximus Decimus

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 02:13 PM

People are absolutely obsessed with this notion that the Exiles are on this downward trajectory: why not just concern ourselves with the here and now, for now? There are plenty of options for strengthening the Exiles. For one, they should have let French players participate from day one and they can still introduce that.

30-10 was not a flogging and Scubby needs to give his head a shake for that one. Almost Lobby-esque.

 

I think it's more to do with the history of RL. I think a lot will depend on the World Cup. If it's had no impact and we still fall at the usual hurdle, then I think its 95% sure to be dropped.  

 

30-10 wasn't a flogging but it should have been. This Exiles side didn't look as motivated as previous sides and were defensively quite weak at times.



#62 Trojan

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 02:14 PM

IMO part of the problem was that Yorks v Lancs was billed as a competitive trial, but when Yorks stuffed Lancs none of them got picked for GB at the end of the year anyway. I got the impression that David Waite had a say in the selection of both teams as well, which is completely contrary to what happens in Australia.

I also hated that they called it 'County of Origin' or something naff like that. 'War of the Roses' was much better as a name and could have helped in the publicity. Using the word 'origin' over here just reinforces how the games are a pale imitation of Australia's 'origin'.

I agree that the concept was set up to fail, albeit probably by bad planning rather than design.

 

 

But they did call the series of games in the 80's "The Rodstock War of the Roses"  problem was that Mal Reilly then coach of GB said he wasn't going to take any notice of the result when selecting the test team - so the whole idea of it being a test trial was negated. And I believe that Lancashire stopped taking them seriously. I recall watching a Yorkshire side that contained Ellery, Kevin Ward, Paul Newlove, Garry Schofield, David Hobbs and Andy Goodway destroy Lancashire at Central Park in 1989.  I think this was the point when Lancashire packed in taking it seriously. 

Union used to have "Probables v Possibles" trials and I wonder if there is any mileage in a similar idea being tried in RL. After all if we do aspire to be a national game, doesn't  Yorkshire v Lancashire as our premier representative fixture below test level rather undermine that aspiration?


Edited by Trojan, 15 June 2013 - 02:17 PM.

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#63 Pottsy

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 02:18 PM

People are absolutely obsessed with this notion that the Exiles are on this downward trajectory: why not just concern ourselves with the here and now, for now? There are plenty of options for strengthening the Exiles. For one, they should have let French players participate from day one and they can still introduce that.

30-10 was not a flogging and Scubby needs to give his head a shake for that one. Almost Lobby-esque.


Spot on. We shouldn't go for the tried & tested formula of scrapping something that isn't an immediate success.

As you say, it needs tweaking and enhancing, rather than ditching.

#64 Pottsy

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 02:22 PM

I'm sorry but it doesn't follow that the Exiles is a failure but because the Roses clashes got a few hundred more for the final game that they were not a failure.

The only thing that can be drawn from the Exiles game is the remarkable parallel that it has created with the Roses clashes. It started at Headingly with a moderate crowd, was expanded to two games that didn't work and then went back down to one game. It was also noted for its lack of intensity and atmosphere. It says a lot that there was no outcry when it was dropped.

I'm not a huge fan of the Exiles, I didn't watch it all last night for the reasons many people didn't. However, it actually serves a purpose. England get a warm up game against a team that are better than France or Wales but worse than the Kiwis or the Australians. One of our problems is that we have no preparation for the much higher level of intensity. Our players are up against it already but have to counter the fact that they don't play together often enough against high quality opposition.

Obviously, the Exiles is starting to lose its usefulness as the quality of imports decrease. Last night we scored tries we would never score against the Kangaroos and didn't have repeat set after repeat set on their line where we had to try and find a way to score against a well organised defence. That is our problem, playing France, Wales and now the Exiles results in tries where we don't need to unpick a tough defence.

The Roses clashes don't even have this usefulness. They will never be Origin, they have had every opportunity in the past to develop into a genuine rivalry and never did. There is also the giant elephant in the room that we have no big clubs in Lancashire anymore. I'm not a Lancastrian despite being told I should be, I'm from Cheshire. Widnes hasn't been in Lancashire for over 40 years and that's not going to get any better. Each generation will get less and less attached the idea that we are really from Lancashire.

It's funny how over 10 years on, the negative aspects and obvious flaws are forgotten and all its ills are blamed on the perennial excuses of poor marketing and giving up too early as if time is all something magically needs. Every bad RL crowd is blamed on marketing from the World Cup in 2000 to the failure of London to draw a crowd.

I look forward to the thread in 2023 calling for a return of the Exiles concept that was marketed badly and then dropped too early in its previous guise.

So you couldn't be bothered to attend last night's game (despite it taking place in your beloved county of Cheshire!) and you couldn't even spare the time to watch it on telly, yet you think that the sport ought to schedule its blue chip events according to your preferences.

Perhaps a Cheshire vs The Rest of the World 'Origin' match played in your back garden would be the best way forward?

Edited by Pottsy, 15 June 2013 - 02:23 PM.


#65 Wellsy4HullFC

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 02:26 PM

I doubt very much that the RFL is going to fly in 30-40 players for one-off games. It's not like it'll be a 'training camp' more a case of hit & run, dir to the travel, jet lag etc.

The only reason a one off Test involving the full England team is looking slightly more viable is that so many of our very best players now play in the NRL.

Maybe two tests then? I'd say it's important that our players learn to play down under as early as possible. It's not like we've got a great record down there!

Anyway, let's not get too bogged down debating the merits of things that aren't actually going to happen.

There'll probably be another Exiles game; it'll probably draw a poor crowd; we'll probably scrap it; and we'll then probably try something else.

Meanwhile the world keeps turning. Get yourself off the computer, out of the house and start living life, Wellsy lad ;)

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#66 Pottsy

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 02:28 PM

Maybe two tests then? I'd say it's important that our players learn to play down under as early as possible. It's not like we've got a great record down there!

I don't have a computer, I use the iPhone! And I'm doing that outside in the Sun whilst being massively hungover ;)


Michael, you're pushing 30, you need to put aside these crazy schemes of yours and get out and get yourself a nice girlfriend :)

#67 Trojan

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 02:29 PM

So you couldn't be bothered to attend last night's game (despite it taking place in your beloved county of Cheshire!) and you couldn't even spare the time to watch it on telly, yet you think that the sport ought to schedule its blue chip events according to your preferences.

Perhaps a Cheshire vs The Rest of the World 'Origin' match played in your back garden would be the best way forward?

 

I didn't go last night - but then I live in Yorkshire. If the RFL want games like this to be well attended they should play them at a reasonable time on either a Saturday or Sunday.  Anyone who works would find it almost impossible to get from (say) Hull or even Leeds to Warrington in time to watch the game.  In fact no one with any sense tries to travel on Leeds-Manchester stretch of the M62 between 4-00pm and 7-00pm if they have a choice. My choice was to watch it on TV


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#68 Pottsy

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 02:34 PM

I didn't go last night - but then I live in Yorkshire. If the RFL want games like this to be well attended they should play them at a reasonable time on either a Saturday or Sunday. Anyone who works would find it almost impossible to get from (say) Hull or even Leeds to Warrington in time to watch the game. In fact no one with any sense tries to travel on Leeds-Manchester stretch of the M62 between 4-00pm and 7-00pm if they have a choice. My choice was to watch it on TV


Couldn't agree more. I travel from Leeds to watch Salford and it's a nightmare on Friday evenings

#69 Maximus Decimus

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 02:35 PM

So you couldn't be bothered to attend last night's game (despite it taking place in your beloved county of Cheshire!) and you couldn't even spare the time to watch it on telly, yet you think that the sport ought to schedule its blue chip events according to your preferences.

Perhaps a Cheshire vs The Rest of the World 'Origin' match played in your back garden would be the best way forward?

 

What a brilliant reply. Where did I even indicate that the sport should schedule its blue chip events according to my preferences?

 

I'm an example of somebody who is supposed to support Lancashire because my town used to be in Lancashire 40 years ago. I'm pointing out that I don't, not because I'm boycotting anything but because I'm not from Lancashire. This is unlikely to get better resulting in just as artificial a concept as the Exiles is.



#70 Pottsy

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 02:40 PM

What a brilliant reply. Where did I even indicate that the sport should schedule its blue chip events according to my preferences?

I'm an example of somebody who is supposed to support Lancashire because my town used to be in Lancashire 40 years ago. I'm pointing out that I don't, not because I'm boycotting anything but because I'm not from Lancashire. This is unlikely to get better resulting in just as artificial a concept as the Exiles is.


Ok, so assuming you're right and we have to write off anyone from Widnes, that still leaves us with a fairly large constituency of people who can still identify themselves with Lancashire. Or are you going to try telling me next that people from Wigan, Oldham, Leigh, Salford etc are all proud 'Greater Mancunians?'

Let's face it, rugby league events are hardly reliant on the patronage of the people of Widnes these days, are they?

#71 deluded pom?

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 02:55 PM

It jumped from a crowd of 1,638 to a crowd of 33,000 purely because they persisted with the 3rd game.

 

It's worth pointing out that the biggest ever crowd for a Roses clash was 18,000 in 1900 and the next biggest was 15,000.

 

Before the interstate series became uncompetitive, NSW-QLD clashes used to regularly get 30, 40, 50k attendances. State of Origin didn't come from nowhere.

I never suggested SoO came from nowhere. It was Yanto who intimated that SoO came to be what it is today from crowds in Sydney that had declined to less than 2,000. The old NSW v QL concept had declined to that but SoO started with a bang (in more ways than one) not a whimper.


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#72 Maximus Decimus

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 02:58 PM

Ok, so assuming you're right and we have to write off anyone from Widnes, that still leaves us with a fairly large constituency of people who can still identify themselves with Lancashire. Or are you going to try telling me next that people from Wigan, Oldham, Leigh, Salford etc are all proud 'Greater Mancunians?'

Let's face it, rugby league events are hardly reliant on the patronage of the people of Widnes these days, are they?

 

It's a fact that none of those places are in Lancashire.

 

Whether or not they are proud Greater Mancunians or not has no effect on whether they are proud Lancastrians. What affinity do people really feel for their county in most of England nowadays? I lived in Ireland where they have a genuine affinity and will often state their county of birth before their town.

 

I made the genuine point that a concept built on historical county boundaries has problems ones that are only likely to get worse as the length of time gets longer. I suspect if you went into a secondary school in Salford, Wigan, St Helens, Warrington etc there would be a large percentage who weren't even aware that their town used to be in Lancashire. These are the people that we will be expecting to get passionate about being from Lancashire in a Roses concept.

 

It's often an admittance of defeat when somebody cannot engage in an actual conversation without resorting to personal insults.



#73 Maximus Decimus

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 03:00 PM

I never suggested SoO came from nowhere. It was Yanto who intimated that SoO came to be what it is today from crowds in Sydney that had declined to less than 2,000. The old NSW v QL concept had declined to that but SoO started with a bang (in more ways than one) not a whimper.

 

I know, I was referring to the earlier post and agreeing with what you were saying. The implication of Yanto was that it had declined but was persisted with and improved. As you pointed out, it was reinvented based on a genuine greivance and this had an instant effect.



#74 deluded pom?

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 03:22 PM

I know, I was referring to the earlier post and agreeing with what you were saying. The implication of Yanto was that it had declined but was persisted with and improved. As you pointed out, it was reinvented based on a genuine greivance and this had an instant effect.

Sorry, I read it the wrong way.


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#75 Wellsy4HullFC

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 03:33 PM


Michael, you're pushing 30


That hurts.
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#76 deluded pom?

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 03:45 PM

Pushing! I heard he shoulder charged it many moons ago. Illegally of course.


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#77 Wellsy4HullFC

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 03:47 PM

It's a fact that none of those places are in Lancashire.

Whether or not they are proud Greater Mancunians or not has no effect on whether they are proud Lancastrians. What affinity do people really feel for their county in most of England nowadays? I lived in Ireland where they have a genuine affinity and will often state their county of birth before their town.

I made the genuine point that a concept built on historical county boundaries has problems ones that are only likely to get worse as the length of time gets longer. I suspect if you went into a secondary school in Salford, Wigan, St Helens, Warrington etc there would be a large percentage who weren't even aware that their town used to be in Lancashire. These are the people that we will be expecting to get passionate about being from Lancashire in a Roses concept.

It's often an admittance of defeat when somebody cannot engage in an actual conversation without resorting to personal insults.

I agree.

Take that Pottsy, you old budgie faced git! ;)
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#78 Scubby

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 03:47 PM

People are absolutely obsessed with this notion that the Exiles are on this downward trajectory: why not just concern ourselves with the here and now, for now? There are plenty of options for strengthening the Exiles. For one, they should have let French players participate from day one and they can still introduce that.

30-10 was not a flogging and Scubby needs to give his head a shake for that one. Almost Lobby-esque.

 

I've travelled all over the world to watch England/GB but just can't get into this. I'm sorry but at 24-0 everyone lost interest. England were rubbish in the second half and it should have been an absolute flogging.

 

The flaw in the concept was trying to create this Anzac/Exiles type thing - when it should be the best non-qualified England players. That Exiles team was old (ave age 31) and this will only get worse. You can't have a concept like the Exiles when there is no production line (i.e. emerging players coming through).

 

The problem with promoting it is that the players know that Chris Bailey, Heath L'Estrange, Lance Hohaia etc. are plodders, the fans know they are plodders. Where is the anticipation? When we had Trent Barrett, Steve Renouf, Allan Langer, Stacey Jones, Jamie Lyon and Lesley Vainakolo to choose from then the shirt is worth something. The Exiles could conceivably have David Howell, Dean Collis and Josh Perry playing next year FFS.

 

Call it something like the Barbarians or give it a real French flavour (e.g. a French word for the team name) and it may have some legs. Brough, Bosc and young emerging non-English stars should be in there like Escare, Larroyer etc. Even invite one or 2 guest superstars over to play - like Benji Marshall or Manu Vatuvai - but give the paying public some anticipation to part with their cash!

 

The promotion of it this year was almost apologetic.


Edited by Scubby, 15 June 2013 - 03:53 PM.


#79 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 03:52 PM

Isn't that essentially what the Exiles is supposed to be?

They've missed a trick (although I'm told it's due to visa related complexities) by not allowing Welshmen, Frenchmen and the likes of Danny Brough to play.


I was actually writing about the need for an RL Barbarians over a decade ago. Makes me feel old!

I'vebeen going on about it for a while as well

 

what we have wit the exils is a scratch team put together to give the engklaand team a fairly realistic hit out.

 

They shoulkd be a club, with its own culture and developing history. It should be an honour to play for them and the club should have its own president-there arent enough honours in he game honour distinguished people in it. It should have its own headquarters perhaps at somewhere like the George and it should elect members , be involved in charities and so on, with the exiles game(s) being part of the calendar players houldn't be just selected from overseas players based in the uk. Let' start a new tradition


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#80 Wellsy4HullFC

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 03:56 PM

I've travelled all over the world to watch England/GB but just can't get into this. I'm sorry but at 24-0 everyone lost interest. England were rubbish in the second half and it should have been an absolute flogging.

The flaw in the concept was trying to create this Anzac/Exiles type thing - when it should be the best non-qualified England players. That Exiles team was old (ave age 31) and this will only get worse. You can't have a concept like the Exiles when there is no production line (i.e. emerging players coming through).

Maybe this is the start of teams signing Aussies at a young age and bringing them through? We've got Jacob Miller coming over to Hull this weekend.

The problem with promoting it is that the players know that Chris Bailey, Heath L'Estrange, Lance Hohaia etc. are plodders, the fans know they are plodders. Where is the anticipation? When we had Trent Barrett, Steve Renouf, Allan Langer, Stacey Jones, Jamie Lyon and Lesley Vainakolo to choose from then the shirt is worth something. The Exiles could conceivably have David Howell, Dean Collis and Josh Perry playing next year FFS.

But so is JJB but he gets picked all the time!

it something like the Barbarians or give it a real French flavour (e.g. a French word for the team name) and it may have some legs. Brough, Bosc and young emerging non-English stars should be in there like Escare, Larroyer etc. Even invite one or 2 guest superstars over to play - like Benji Marshall or Manu Vatuvai - but give the paying public some anticipation to part with their cash!

Why?! Why this need to call it the Barbarians and get compared unflatteringly to rugby union every time.

Would the FFR13 allow their players to take part in this when they could be (should be) having their own internationals.
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