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Super League Restructure Discussion (Many Merged Threads)


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#621 sheddings69

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 10:13 AM

No, clearly not

But the thing that is noticeable in this debate is that the ONLY remotely solid argument the "pro P&R" lobby have is that licensing doesn't appear to have stopped clubs finances being rubbish

And this is perhaps true. Though what is conveniently forgotten is that the clubs that have failed this test would have failed it no matter what the league structure was

The simple, provable & quantifiable fact is that licensing has been the best thing to happen to Rugby League in my lifetime

No amount of rosy eyed anecdotes of mythical halcyon days - that are proven wrong time and time again when actual facts are used - will change this reality

But arguing with those who want a return to automatic P&R is like arguing with the religious. Unquestioning faith will accept no amount of evidence they are wrong.


Franchise and be done with it - reduce SL down to 10 viable teams (and 10 is pushing it) for each geographical area. The rest of the game can get on and decide their own path. Mo was nearly right but the maniacal thought teams would ever merge was a step too far.

#622 JohnM

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 10:30 AM

Better dead than red, eh? The result has been that some clubs have wasted lots of time and money struggling to compete with each other and winning nothing, rather than combine and win something. Sure, some fans would have deserted, but a new generation would have emerged.

#623 JohnM

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 10:36 AM

Better dead than red, eh? The result has been that some clubs have wasted lots of time and money struggling to compete with each other and winning nothing, rather than combine and win something. Sure, some fans would have deserted, but a new generation would have emerged. However, it's not to be..another missed opportunity.

#624 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 11:54 AM

So how badly would clubs have to do in order for their licences to be revoked? Over the past five years have all licensed SL clubs stabilised and addressed their finances?

to the extent that those charged with running the game consider it no longer a good idea for taking the sport forward

 

rather than(and thankfully) those with a vested interest see as advantageous for them


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#625 Terry Mullaney

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 12:12 PM

to the extent that those charged with running the game consider it no longer a good idea for taking the sport forward

rather than(and thankfully) those with a vested interest see as advantageous for them

Try addressing your concerns to those who are making the decisions ie the clubs. Licensing has clearly failed to achieve its intended objectives. Rimmer as much as said so on Boots n all hence the muting of a possible return to P & R but this time with a soft landing for those who take the drop.

I don't care which format they come up with, I've loved supporting Fev for the past 50 odd years and will continue to do so until I drop no matter what. If licensing stays then I would expect Rovers to have a great chance of being awarded one but my hope is for the game to prosper, not just Fev, as I've said before. Licensing is wrong, in my opinion.

Anyway, I'm off to watch my team.

Edited by Terry Mullaney, 07 July 2013 - 12:32 PM.

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#626 jpmc

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 02:11 PM

Franchise and be done with it - reduce SL down to 10 viable teams (and 10 is pushing it) for each geographical area. The rest of the game can get on and decide their own path. Mo was nearly right but the maniacal thought teams would ever merge was a step too far.


If the 5 or 6 genuine SLE clubs are to push on then its hard to argue with that.
London must be kept in and Toulouse added giving you 8 clubs.The problem then is were do you go from there?.
Personally speaking i would try to merge the rest of the french clubs to form 4 more clubs,taking SLE to 14 clubs and then hopefully french tv would get deeply involved and help SKY TV to finance it.

#627 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 03:59 PM

Try addressing your concerns to those who are making the decisions ie the clubs. Licensing has clearly failed to achieve its intended objectives. Rimmer as much as said so on Boots n all hence the muting of a possible return to P & R but this time with a soft landing for those who take the drop.

I don't care which format they come up with, I've loved supporting Fev for the past 50 odd years and will continue to do so until I drop no matter what. If licensing stays then I would expect Rovers to have a great chance of being awarded one but my hope is for the game to prosper, not just Fev, as I've said before. Licensing is wrong, in my opinion.

Anyway, I'm off to watch my team.

the concerns were yours: you asked how badly a club had to do to get its license revoked. I gave you an answer.

 

You say you don't care what format 'they' come up with, but then say you the format 'they' have come up with is wrong. What if 'they' come up with a format that doesn't involve promotion and relegation: will you still 'not care'.

 

edit: any chance of an answer to my question in post 562? I've asked it two or three times now.

 

and as a point of information: your insistance that 'some' and onm other occassions 'all' of the 'the clubs' have asked for this review is also addressed in a previous post-see 'just to be clear's' post number 595


Edited by l'angelo mysterioso, 07 July 2013 - 04:10 PM.

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#628 sheddings69

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 05:00 PM

If the 5 or 6 genuine SLE clubs are to push on then its hard to argue with that.
London must be kept in and Toulouse added giving you 8 clubs.The problem then is were do you go from there?.
Personally speaking i would try to merge the rest of the french clubs to form 4 more clubs,taking SLE to 14 clubs and then hopefully french tv would get deeply involved and help SKY TV to finance it.


Makes more sense than the current system, at least the teams left out can forget about it and get on with developing their league.

#629 Terry Mullaney

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 06:19 PM

the concerns were yours: you asked how badly a club had to do to get its license revoked. I gave you an answer.
 
You say you don't care what format 'they' come up with, but then say you the format 'they' have come up with is wrong. What if 'they' come up with a format that doesn't involve promotion and relegation: will you still 'not care'.
 
edit: any chance of an answer to my question in post 562? I've asked it two or three times now.
 
and as a point of information: your insistance that 'some' and onm other occassions 'all' of the 'the clubs' have asked for this review is also addressed in a previous post-see 'just to be clear's' post number 595

I think you get the gist of my feelings despite your pedantry. I don't intend to get drawn into deep debate over the questions you asked, its all been done to death many times before on here and I'm bored of your repetitive and totally irrelevant references to Rovers crowds from decades ago. Licensing is dead in the water, get used to the idea.
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#630 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 06:27 PM

I think you get the gist of my feelings despite your pedantry. I don't intend to get drawn into deep debate over the questions you asked, its all been done to death many times before on here and I'm bored of your repetitive and totally irrelevant references to Rovers crowds from decades ago. Licensing is dead in the water, get used to the idea.

perhaps you'd like to show me where I'm being pedantic.

I answered your question.

 

the gist of what you are saying seems confusing

you said you didn't care about the formsat 'they' come up with. Yet you have expressed time and time again despite all the (evidence-evidence which you in this instance  dismiss as irrelevant) your insistence on returning to the discredited practice of automatic promotion and relegation...which was ast in regular use  er decades ago.

 as for your boredmo, well my apologie for that. if only I could be as entertaining as you.


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#631 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 06:28 PM

Makes more sense than the current system, at least the teams left out can forget about it and get on with developing their league.

unless they wish to apply for a franchise of course.


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#632 sheddings69

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 06:42 PM

unless they wish to apply for a franchise of course.


Suggest you look at how that works in Aussie/US - there's a very big difference between licensing and franchising

#633 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 06:46 PM

Suggest you look at how that works in Aussie/US - there's a very big difference between licensing and franchising

 

Suggest you look at how that works in Aussie/US - there's a very big difference between licensing and franchising

I know there is

and all out Franchising has a lot going for it


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#634 Johnoco

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 11:50 PM

All the people I speak to love the product on the pitch (why wouldn't you) but think the set up of the league system is a joke. The words boring and repetitive are often used. Hence the franchising reference - be open and honest about who you want in and out and just get on with it. Lip service licensing does the game no favours whatsoever.


They love the product on the pitch, but prefer other sports not influenced by money like Football, Tennis or golf or RU maybe? :rolleyes:

#635 Ackroman

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 09:06 AM

No, clearly not

But the thing that is noticeable in this debate is that the ONLY remotely solid argument the "pro P&R" lobby have is that licensing doesn't appear to have stopped clubs finances being rubbish

And this is perhaps true. Though what is conveniently forgotten is that the clubs that have failed this test would have failed it no matter what the league structure was

The simple, provable & quantifiable fact is that licensing has been the best thing to happen to Rugby League in my lifetime

No amount of rosy eyed anecdotes of mythical halcyon days - that are proven wrong time and time again when actual facts are used - will change this reality

But arguing with those who want a return to automatic P&R is like arguing with the religious. Unquestioning faith will accept no amount of evidence they are wrong.

 

I stopped replying because I thought your previous attempts at evidence were rather poor. This statement however puts you in the spotlight as far as I'm concerned and I can't resist a challenge.

 

If it so simple, provable and quantifiable maybe you could explain it?

 

Because I have this nagging feeling that for all the evidence you demand from those who are pro P&R, you haven't provided one iota of simple argument to prove licencing is the answer to the weaknesses of P&R.

 

Your orgasmic state over it is therefore a mystery to me.



#636 Ant

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 09:33 AM

So
Crowds improved
More competitive league
Massive improvement in player development
Massive improvement in stadium facilities
Clubs more able to plan long term strategies
Clubs more able to recover from financial meltdown

Compared to what?
It's a bit exciting for two teams at the end of the season (but not enough to give them better crowds of course)

Erm

That's it.

#637 Duff Duff

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 10:24 AM

The thing that people need to realise is there is o of enough money in the sport for one fully professional competition and the resources from TV and sponsorship need to be concentrated on making that one competition as viable and as vibrant as possible so that the all the clubs in that competition are viable and profitable.

What should the fully professional competition look like? Well a franchised or licensed league of 10 clubs with be a start with a 4 or 5 team playoff structure. The thing with licensing is that it only works when there are more clubs that meet the standard than their are allowed into the competition. Presently that is not the case. If licensing had worked properly both Wakefield and Bradford would have been thrown out of the competition and replaced by better run as more viable clubs. The problem was there were too many clubs in the Super League and not any potential Super League sides in the Championship with a viable business model.

The licences should last for three years and be rigourously reviewed when they are up for renewal. Whoever presents the best business case and business model is in, those that fail to meet the standard are out.

The rest of the clubs outside Super League need to realise that they can only afford to pay their players the money that their clubs and their competitions generate without any hand puts from Super League and the RFL. The aim should be for there to be a vibrant, competitive and sustainable semi-professional competition with the emphasis on youth and player development. If clubs want to get into Super League then they would have to put the spade work in and get the private financial backing to put together a viable business model.

The clubs in the ten team competition would be Wigan, St Helens, Warrington, Leeds, Bradford, Hull, Catalans, Huddersfield, Salford and one of either Castleford or Wakefield.

Whether the Calder teams merge or whether one takes precedence over another is a matter of debate. If neither are viable then they should be both be demoted from Super League to concentrate their minds. The same goes for the Hull clubs. Whether it would be a stand alone FC side or a merged Hull United is a debate that would need to be made.

Before the Super League can have any grandiose notions of expansion the core of the sport's heartlands need to be financially viable and thriving. If Super League can't support clubs like Bradford then what hopes does it have in London, Toulouse or Wales.

If and when the sport can afford to expand to non-traditional areas or can find the private money to finance an expansion club then everything that can be done to make sure they are competitive has to be done. Expansion clubs will only work if they are successful on the pitch. Like the Melbourne Storm they need to be challenging for Championships and regularly be in the playoffs to attract media attention and support.

Rugby league needs to cut its cloth according to financial reality. That reality is that the sport can only afford a limited number of fully professional clubs and can support one viable fully professional competition. The fudging and the compromises need to stop and tough decisions need to be made.

#638 sweaty craiq

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 11:33 AM

RL would die with 9 teams in UK
10 is the right number but two divisions of full time tens
Objectives- increase intensity, make the top a truly super spectacle, increase FT player poll, expand in France, create realistic pathway for ambitious clubs to reach the top, include the limbo clubs in the games future, increase income

How- two tens £1.3m and 625k sky split, Toulouse in SL2, 27 fixtures, top 5 play off, min £1.8 spend in SL1 and £1m in SL2 max 50% income, 1 down/up by position with second bottom SL1 top seed in play offs, 450 FT players as opposed to current 325 plus 50 as opposed to 25 in France, licence review every 3 years or a club will lose licence/get relegated if unable to meet min spend.

Simple, affordable and meets objectives

#639 thirteenthman

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 12:34 PM

So
Crowds improved
More competitive league
Massive improvement in player development
Massive improvement in stadium facilities
Clubs more able to plan long term strategies
Clubs more able to recover from financial meltdown

Compared to what?
It's a bit exciting for two teams at the end of the season (but not enough to give them better crowds of course)

Erm

That's it.

 

I've no preference either way as to licencing or p+r, I just wish the sport would make its mind up where it wants to go and stick to it. But just to pick up on a couple of those points on licencing:-

 

Crowds were already improving before licencing was brought in.

 

The competitiveness is open to question as all I keep reading is clubs wanting to change the format to make it more competitive.

 

Player development could easily have been improved upon without licencing - arguably the changes to the academy set up this year could set that development back, and that's occured under licencing.

 

Many clubs moved to improved stadium facilities before licencing was brought in. Properly run standards based p+r would achieve the same effect.

 

And while I'd agree that clubs can plan more effectively financially under licencing, the fact that you've followed this up with a point on financial meltdown shows that clubs would still be capable of making a mess of their finances even if they were given a 100 year licence.



#640 Ackroman

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 02:37 PM

I've no preference either way as to licencing or p+r, I just wish the sport would make its mind up where it wants to go and stick to it. But just to pick up on a couple of those points on licencing:-

 

Crowds were already improving before licencing was brought in.

 

The competitiveness is open to question as all I keep reading is clubs wanting to change the format to make it more competitive.

 

Player development could easily have been improved upon without licencing - arguably the changes to the academy set up this year could set that development back, and that's occured under licencing.

 

Many clubs moved to improved stadium facilities before licencing was brought in. Properly run standards based p+r would achieve the same effect.

 

And while I'd agree that clubs can plan more effectively financially under licencing, the fact that you've followed this up with a point on financial meltdown shows that clubs would still be capable of making a mess of their finances even if they were given a 100 year licence.

 

Thanks for that. 

 

Licencing cannot claim to have made any of these improvements as they were already happening. Neither has licencing prevented the boom and bust culture of sport.

 

Licensing in itself can only be effective if there is competition for the licences. As has been pointed out, there isn't any, in fact SL has pretty much asset stripped potential licencee's from the Championship bar one or 2 clubs on the outside.

 

So lets be honest Ant, it's not licencing that gives you as warm feeling but the fact that your club has the benefit of a licence.