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Super League Restructure Discussion (Many Merged Threads)


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#681 Duff Duff

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 06:23 AM

The system was flawed because there wasn't any proper competition for licences back when they were introduced. The only contentious decision was excluding Widnes. The over expansion of the league to 14 clubs and introducing 8 team playoffs was a big mistake that has reduced the quality of the competition.

Also rigging the process in favour if expansion sides is a bad idea. Expansion will only work if money is thrown at it by either the Super League or private backers. Expansion need to stand up on their own merits. Cetlic Crusaders were waved into the competition and then promptly folded. Salford were given a licence on pretty shaky grounds too and geographic considerations obviously played a part too.

I would only admit expansion teams if they had a realistic chance of getting into the playoffs and challenging for honours within a short time period. Onfield success is the best way of creating publicity in non rugby league areas. For example London deserve to be kicked out of the competition. They are serving little or no purpose to the sport as they are currently constructed and performing.

If Toulouse wanted to join the competition they would have to prove they were a better bet than one of the existing teams.

#682 a.n Other

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 07:12 AM

The system was flawed because there wasn't any proper competition for licences back when they were introduced. The only contentious decision was excluding Widnes. The over expansion of the league to 14 clubs and introducing 8 team playoffs was a big mistake that has reduced the quality of the competition.

Also rigging the process in favour if expansion sides is a bad idea. Expansion will only work if money is thrown at it by either the Super League or private backers. Expansion need to stand up on their own merits. Cetlic Crusaders were waved into the competition and then promptly folded. Salford were given a licence on pretty shaky grounds too and geographic considerations obviously played a part too.

There won't be any competition for licences if you want Championship clubs to more or less go back to being amateur teams as you said earlier.

Edited by a.n Other, 10 July 2013 - 07:41 AM.


#683 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 07:39 AM

Only because of the crazy 25% turnover created by 4 up. 4 down.

why did they do that?

are you saying that the other system worked?

and what about three divisions? Why did they do that?


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#684 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 07:40 AM

It wasnt crazy!

It was exciting

it's a pity not many other people thought so


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#685 sweaty craiq

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 08:06 AM

To create excitement you need competition at both top and bottom, to be super that competition at the top should have wow eg Wire v Wigan recently
The bottom needs clubs pushing from below, without the below it will always lack something and become stale
You cannot get real investment below without a return ie promotion, it is a firmly held belief that was why o Connor spent at Widnes- but what would have happened if they had been knocked back?
The system is partly correct imo but is focused too heavily on protecting a few which in turn kills a few, with the rest currently in no position to have ambition but should have a clear achievable goal should that change

#686 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 08:08 AM

To create excitement you need competition at both top and bottom, to be super that competition at the top should have wow eg Wire v Wigan recently
The bottom needs clubs pushing from below, without the below it will always lack something and become stale
You cannot get real investment below without a return ie promotion, it is a firmly held belief that was why o Connor spent at Widnes- but what would have happened if they had been knocked back?
The system is partly correct imo but is focused too heavily on protecting a few which in turn kills a few, with the rest currently in no position to have ambition but should have a clear achievable goal should that change

Then why didn't it work when we had it for all those years?
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#687 Ackroman

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 08:34 AM

If SL can't raise the bar and create a brand for RL after all this time it never will, so SL will have no choice but to find growth for it's competition elsewhere, especially if the concensus is the lower league clubs can't cut the mustard.

 

If people think this lack of momentum is the best thing for SL then don't be shocked if that growth comes from collaboration with other sports. It's inevitable.



#688 Jimmy B

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 08:35 AM

Then why didn't it work when we had it for all those years?

 

On what basis do you say it didn't work ?

No real investment ?

Attendance figures ?

No excitement ?

And which clubs went under or into administration between the years 1973 -1995 as a result of promotion / relegation ?

 

Serious questions.


Edited by Jimmy B, 10 July 2013 - 09:18 AM.

Lets not forget, Featherstone Rovers is a RUGBY club.

#689 sweaty craiq

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 08:38 AM

For many it did and those many wonder how well it would have been propped up by £20m pa from sky?
A true measure of success is benchmarking against your primary competitors, have we gone forwards or backwards in this area after licensing?
Is the international game healthier now than 90-95?

#690 a.n Other

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 08:51 AM

Don't know if anyone has posted this, but quite interesting reading.

http://www.therfl.co...olicyreviewfaqs

#691 Viking Warrior

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 08:57 AM

To create excitement you need competition at both top and bottom, to be super that competition at the top should have wow eg Wire v Wigan recently
The bottom needs clubs pushing from below, without the below it will always lack something and become stale
You cannot get real investment below without a return ie promotion, it is a firmly held belief that was why o Connor spent at Widnes- but what would have happened if they had been knocked back?
The system is partly correct imo but is focused too heavily on protecting a few which in turn kills a few, with the rest currently in no position to have ambition but should have a clear achievable goal should that change


but widnes were knocked back in favour of crusaders, and what did steve do? made certain that they would not be knocked back again by totally re-building and re-branding the club. if there is a better run club in the game today i would love to see it.....
"Why is Napoleon crying ?" said one sailor to the other, "poor ###### thinks he's being exiled to st helens" came the reply.



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#692 sweaty craiq

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 09:35 AM

but widnes were knocked back in favour of crusaders, and what did steve do? made certain that they would not be knocked back again by totally re-building and re-branding the club. if there is a better run club in the game today i would love to see it.....

 

What I am saying is that there is a belief that SoC was promised a licence next time if ............... this allowed him to invest in the certainty of a SL spot. If you had been knocked back again, what would have happened? Administration again?



#693 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 09:45 AM

On what basis do you say it didn't work ?

No real investment ?

Attendance figures ?

No excitement ?

And which clubs went under or into administration between the years 1973 -1995 as a result of promotion / relegation ?

 

Serious questions.

serious questions eh? You mean you have no idea of your own club's history during the period, but never mind: here we go again

 

for a start the insolvency act only came into force in 1986, also many if not most clubs weren't companies-including yours-remember t'committee and their ridicuolus blazers?

Your club wasn't one of the elite band of yo yo clubs-well not quite anyway, but was saved on one occassion by the ground being bought by the council and being sold back for next to nothing, then there was the aftermath of the 1977 championship-a player's strike, which I'm given to understand wasn't a demonstration in support of the Nicaraguan sandinista guerrilas. One of the main aspects of the history of the was the inability of clubs - Leigh, Halifax(who were driven to field a team composed entirely of australians one season, and were knocked out of the cup by an amateur team), Oldham and so on to be competitive whenever they were promoted and to be relegated immediately after...what do you, use your imagination,  you think were the effects of that on the clubs and the quality of the competition? So clubs tended not to go into administration. They did other things leaving theoir creditors completely unrecompensed.

 

Excitement: yes it was a thrill a minute watching the same clubs go up and down year after year and their infrastructure crumble away-literally at the wateersheddings, I was once nearly decapitated by as lunp of rusty corrugated iron that fell from the roof of the covered terracing in the early 90s And there was the tension, intensity, of the stadium(sic) filling relegation battles: well no actually-and this has been gone over so many times...they almost never happened. Your club had a triumphant cup run that ran parrallel with relegation battles in 1983-your friend Mr Mullaney says it hasn't to be mentioned because it was decades ago: and had average attendances of 2,600. Do I have to go over the last day of the season championship decider when tghe title could have gone to either Wigan, Bradford or warrington. Bradford's attendances were far smaller then than they are in the recent unsuccessful seasons at the club and the effect of the Harris affair

 

Attendences are far in excess of what they were in this apparent golden era. Your own club even gets better crowds than it did in 1983

 

anyway 'to the point', bring back the Yorkshire Cup, it were a money spinner: now where did I hear that?


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#694 Duff Duff

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 11:31 AM

There won't be any competition for licences if you want Championship clubs to more or less go back to being amateur teams as you said earlier.


Because if there were only 10 or 12 places in the top division there would be massive competition between them for getting a place. Also if a club in the Championship, say Sheffield, got their act together off the field and presented a proper business case for being in Super League then they would be given a spot. As I said the playing squad is the last piece in the jigsaw not the first piece. Under promotion and relegation it is the other way around.

It is similar to how the NRL admits new clubs. They put a bid together, get a stadium, get a business plan and get financial backing and then they apply. What happens on the pitch is pretty irrelevant.

#695 sheddings69

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 11:44 AM

Because if there were only 10 or 12 places in the top division there would be massive competition between them for getting a place. Also if a club in the Championship, say Sheffield, got their act together off the field and presented a proper business case for being in Super League then they would be given a spot. As I said the playing squad is the last piece in the jigsaw not the first piece. Under promotion and relegation it is the other way around.

It is similar to how the NRL admits new clubs. They put a bid together, get a stadium, get a business plan and get financial backing and then they apply. What happens on the pitch is pretty irrelevant.


The NRL operates a franchising system. Only when a strategic decision to expand is made by the NRL does it open up to a tender process. A number of bids are lobbying for potential inclusion in 2015. A number of these bids were conceived going back to 2008 including Papua New Guinea.

#696 a.n Other

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 11:51 AM

Because if there were only 10 or 12 places in the top division there would be massive competition between them for getting a place. Also if a club in the Championship, say Sheffield, got their act together off the field and presented a proper business case for being in Super League then they would be given a spot. As I said the playing squad is the last piece in the jigsaw not the first piece. Under promotion and relegation it is the other way around.

It is similar to how the NRL admits new clubs. They put a bid together, get a stadium, get a business plan and get financial backing and then they apply. What happens on the pitch is pretty irrelevant.

There may be a "massive" competition for the first round of licences. They whoever gets one won't be troubled again as they will be competing against more of less amateur sides if that's what you suggest.

How would you fund the 2nd and 3 rd tier to allow clubs to build these businesses?

Edited by a.n Other, 10 July 2013 - 11:52 AM.


#697 Duff Duff

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 12:09 PM

Exactly. The NRL model is something that should be aimed for. It works.

Who funds the second and third tier? Themselves. If they want to put a bid together they should would need private backing.

#698 a.n Other

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 12:18 PM

Exactly. The NRL model is something that should be aimed for. It works.

Who funds the second and third tier? Themselves. If they want to put a bid together they should would need private backing.

So you want them to develop a business plan, when the team will draw next to no fans, as fans wouldn't want to watch amateur players. How would they attract sponsors or investors?

Or is your real point, That you just want a closed shop protecting teams that are currently in SL (presumingly including the club you support)?

Edited by a.n Other, 10 July 2013 - 12:18 PM.


#699 Duff Duff

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 12:45 PM

I don't support any club actually. What I care about is the health of the sport in England and the fortunes of the national side. England needs the highest standard domestic competition it can get and a competition that is financially sustainable. Promotion and relegation mitigates against both of those aims. It levels down standards and discourages investment.

In terms of potential bidders where do you think Auckland Warriors, Melbourne Storm and Gold Coast Titans got their funding and supporters from? Built it, market it and if the club is located in the right market the supporters will come. Catalans seem to have managed pretty well too.

In another sport look at Wigan Athletic soccer team. Before Dave Whelan built them a stadium, pumped them full of cash and got them promoted to the Premier League were are badly supported. Once in the Premier League the crowds flooded in.

#700 a.n Other

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 12:54 PM

Promotion and relegation mitigates against both of those aims. It levels down standards and discourages investment.


In another sport look at Wigan Athletic soccer team. Before Dave Whelan built them a stadium, pumped them full of cash and got them promoted to the Premier League were are badly supported. Once in the Premier League the crowds flooded in.


You seem to contradict your own post here? He pumped money in as there was a way he could win promotion on the field. So he built the best team he could. As well as the stadium etc. The stadium alone wouldn't have given him
a place in the Premier League.




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