Jump to content


League Express

Podcast

Photo
* * * * - 1 votes

Super League Restructure Discussion (Many Merged Threads)


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
730 replies to this topic

#701 Ackroman

Ackroman
  • Coach
  • 1,833 posts

Posted 10 July 2013 - 12:56 PM

In another sport look at Wigan Athletic soccer team. Before Dave Whelan built them a stadium, pumped them full of cash and got them promoted to the Premier League were are badly supported. Once in the Premier League the crowds flooded in.

 

 

A team living on borrowed time for most of their tenure in the premier league. It just shows how blind some people are to the reality of sport when you use an example like this to justify licences/franchises like the NRL.

 

All this does is justify P&R!!



#702 l'angelo mysterioso

l'angelo mysterioso
  • Coach
  • 40,628 posts

Posted 10 July 2013 - 01:01 PM

A team living on borrowed time for most of their tenure in the premier league. It just shows how blind some people are to the reality of sport when you use an example like this to justify licences/franchises like the NRL.

All this does is justify P&R!!

And illustrate yet again the invidiousness of correlating soccer with rugby league
Anyway Wigan were relegated and soccer can withstand it

Edited by l'angelo mysterioso, 10 July 2013 - 01:07 PM.

WELCOME TO THE ROYSTON VASEY SUPER LEAGUE 2015
Keeping it local

#703 Jimmy B

Jimmy B
  • Moderator
  • 593 posts

Posted 10 July 2013 - 01:23 PM

On what basis do you say it didn't work ?

serious questions eh? You mean you have no idea of your own club's history during the period, but never mind: here we go again

 

for a start the insolvency act only came into force in 1986, also many if not most clubs weren't companies-including yours-remember t'committee and their ridicuolus blazers?

Your club wasn't one of the elite band of yo yo clubs-well not quite anyway, but was saved on one occassion by the ground being bought by the council and being sold back for next to nothing, then there was the aftermath of the 1977 championship-a player's strike, which I'm given to understand wasn't a demonstration in support of the Nicaraguan sandinista guerrilas. One of the main aspects of the history of the was the inability of clubs - Leigh, Halifax(who were driven to field a team composed entirely of australians one season, and were knocked out of the cup by an amateur team), Oldham and so on to be competitive whenever they were promoted and to be relegated immediately after...what do you, use your imagination,  you think were the effects of that on the clubs and the quality of the competition? So clubs tended not to go into administration. They did other things leaving theoir creditors completely unrecompensed.

 

Excitement: yes it was a thrill a minute watching the same clubs go up and down year after year and their infrastructure crumble away-literally at the wateersheddings, I was once nearly decapitated by as lunp of rusty corrugated iron that fell from the roof of the covered terracing in the early 90s And there was the tension, intensity, of the stadium(sic) filling relegation battles: well no actually-and this has been gone over so many times...they almost never happened. Your club had a triumphant cup run that ran parrallel with relegation battles in 1983-your friend Mr Mullaney says it hasn't to be mentioned because it was decades ago: and had average attendances of 2,600. Do I have to go over the last day of the season championship decider when tghe title could have gone to either Wigan, Bradford or warrington. Bradford's attendances were far smaller then than they are in the recent unsuccessful seasons at the club and the effect of the Harris affair

 

Attendences are far in excess of what they were in this apparent golden era. Your own club even gets better crowds than it did in 1983

 

anyway 'to the point', bring back the Yorkshire Cup, it were a money spinner: now where did I hear that?

 

Why have a go at the Comitttee for wearing club blazers ? Did you think you should have had one ?

So Rovers were skint after building a new stand following the fire and they got help from the council what has that got to do with P & R ?

Did the players go on strike because of P & R ?

So Leigh , Oldham & Halifax couldn't maintain a place in the first division - so what, It meant some other club could have a go in the top flight next season - you tell me what the detrimental effects on the clubs or compettion were.

Finally who were the clubs who did "other things" leaving creditors unrecompensed ?


Lets not forget, Featherstone Rovers is a RUGBY club.

#704 Duff Duff

Duff Duff
  • Banned
  • 717 posts

Posted 10 July 2013 - 01:52 PM

A team living on borrowed time for most of their tenure in the premier league. It just shows how blind some people are to the reality of sport when you use an example like this to justify licences/franchises like the NRL.
 
All this does is justify P&R!!


That wasn't the point I was making. I was using Wigan Athletic as an exampe of a poorly supported soccer who saw an explosion in the their crowds once they got a place in the Premier League. Now they have been relegated their crowds are likely to reduce. The crowds a rugby league club get in the Championship are not necessarily reflective of the crowds the club would get if they were a competitive Super League side. Some clubs have a small hardcore support that can't be expanded, ie. Featherstone, and some have a softer but a larger potential supporter base. Salford and Huddersfield being two noticeable examples.

#705 l'angelo mysterioso

l'angelo mysterioso
  • Coach
  • 40,628 posts

Posted 10 July 2013 - 01:58 PM

Why have a go at the Comitttee for wearing club blazers ? Did you think you should have had one ?
So Rovers were skint after building a new stand following the fire and they got help from the council what has that got to do with P & R ?
Did the players go on strike because of P & R ?
So Leigh , Oldham & Halifax couldn't maintain a place in the first division - so what, It meant some other club could have a go in the top flight next season - you tell me what the detrimental effects on the clubs or compettion were.
Finally who were the clubs who did "other things" leaving creditors unrecompensed ?


Wouldn't be seen dead in one
The stand was built using the insurance money: bob ashby did a superb job in extracting every last penny from the insurers

The players went on strike the season after a championship winning campaign that should have generated the excitement and interest to attract more than the paltry attendances the club achieved.., it was you that mentioned excitement

The trouble was that the same clubs took it in turn to get promoted and relegated with disastrous results for the clubs and the competition in general that the sport was so desperate to accept the sky deal it undersold itself badly and still voted unanimously for it- including your club

Check the history of any given yo yo club that wasn't a limited company or prior to the insolvency act. It wasnt too difficult to get around these things

anyway blazers...so stuffy and pompous don't you think although paul seller looks good in one
WELCOME TO THE ROYSTON VASEY SUPER LEAGUE 2015
Keeping it local

#706 Monkeymagic22

Monkeymagic22
  • Coach
  • 162 posts

Posted 10 July 2013 - 02:05 PM

So much pretentious waffle and hot air on this thread. Is not Rugby League a sport, where honour and glory is earned on the field of play?.

#707 Monkeymagic22

Monkeymagic22
  • Coach
  • 162 posts

Posted 10 July 2013 - 02:07 PM

And Duff Duff, it might interest you that Featherstone Rovers are one of very few clubs who have actually managed to increase average attendances.

#708 Jimmy B

Jimmy B
  • Moderator
  • 593 posts

Posted 10 July 2013 - 02:41 PM

Wouldn't be seen dead in one
The stand was built using the insurance money: bob ashby did a superb job in extracting every last penny from the insurers

The players went on strike the season after a championship winning campaign that should have generated the excitement and interest to attract more than the paltry attendances the club achieved.., it was you that mentioned excitement

The trouble was that the same clubs took it in turn to get promoted and relegated with disastrous results for the clubs and the competition in general that the sport was so desperate to accept the sky deal it undersold itself badly and still voted unanimously for it- including your club

Check the history of any given yo yo club that wasn't a limited company or prior to the insolvency act. It wasnt too difficult to get around these things

anyway blazers...so stuffy and pompous don't you think although paul seller looks good in one

 

So you wouldn't be seen dead in a club blazer. - Well I would wear one with pride, as I do my club tie.

 

Yes Bob did do a superb job with the insurance claim but the fact is at the time the club was broke. The council deal, excellently conducted by Richard Evans, had nothing to do with P& R being part of the league structure.

 

So you say that the players went on strike because attendances did not improve following the Championship winning season. Not because of P & R then ?

 

Yes indeed the game was undersold to Sky, but undersold not because of P & R but because of the greed of certain individuals who couldn't wait to set up the much threatened breakaway Super League. And yes the Featherstone Rovers representatives did vote for it.

 

So we still do not know who the clubs were that disappeared or went into administration / bankrupt between 1973 and 1995 because of P & R. The only one I can think of is the old Doncaster club, ironically in 1995.

 

As for blazers - I personnally think they look very smart & I don't know who Paul Seller is.

 

Chris, I asked you on what you based your claim that P & R didn't work, I still do not know. Like someone said previously it worked for some, and who knows what might have transpired had the old first and second division compettition been the reciprient of Sky monies. 


Lets not forget, Featherstone Rovers is a RUGBY club.

#709 Duff Duff

Duff Duff
  • Banned
  • 717 posts

Posted 10 July 2013 - 03:07 PM

So much pretentious waffle and hot air on this thread. Is not Rugby League a sport, where honour and glory is earned on the field of play?.


No, professional rugby league is primarily a business and needs to be run as such. If the Super League is not commercially vibrant the quality of play in field going to suffer as the club's won't be able to pay the players the going rate. British Rugby League is already losing lots if its top talent to the NRL and Union.

Reintroducing promotion and relegation will threaten the commercial viability of many of the Super League clubs.

#710 Lobbygobbler

Lobbygobbler
  • Coach
  • 5,790 posts

Posted 10 July 2013 - 03:11 PM

No, professional rugby league is primarily a business and needs to be run as such. If the Super League is not commercially vibrant the quality of play in field going to suffer as the club's won't be able to pay the players the going rate. British Rugby League is already losing lots if its top talent to the NRL and Union.

Reintroducing promotion and relegation will threaten the commercial viability of many of the Super League clubs.


Not having promotion and relegation will threaten the commercial viability of all non-Super League clubs, plus SL clubs at the bottom playing for nowt.

Without a pathway to SL, all our other pro clubs might as well switch codes

#711 Monkeymagic22

Monkeymagic22
  • Coach
  • 162 posts

Posted 10 July 2013 - 03:20 PM

No, professional rugby league is primarily a business and needs to be run as such. If the Super League is not commercially vibrant the quality of play in field going to suffer as the club's won't be able to pay the players the going rate. British Rugby League is already losing lots if its top talent to the NRL and Union.

Reintroducing promotion and relegation will threaten the commercial viability of many of the Super League clubs.


With no promotion and relegation teams have gone bust. The financial situation of clubs is their own responsibility, its certainly not an excuse to deny opportunity. A better distribution of the TV money and parachute payments like the EPL would be my suggestion.

#712 l'angelo mysterioso

l'angelo mysterioso
  • Coach
  • 40,628 posts

Posted 10 July 2013 - 03:24 PM

So you wouldn't be seen dead in a club blazer. - Well I would wear one with pride, as I do my club tie.


Yes Bob did do a superb job with the insurance claim but the fact is at the time the club was broke. The council deal, excellently conducted by Richard Evans, had nothing to do with P& R being part of the league structure.

So you say that the players went on strike because attendances did not improve following the Championship winning season. Not because of P & R then ?

Yes indeed the game was undersold to Sky, but undersold not because of P & R but because of the greed of certain individuals who couldn't wait to set up the much threatened breakaway Super League. And yes the Featherstone Rovers representatives did vote for it.

So we still do not know who the clubs were that disappeared or went into administration / bankrupt between 1973 and 1995 because of P & R. The only one I can think of is the old Doncaster club, ironically in 1995.


As for blazers - I personnally think they look very smart & I don't know who Paul Seller is.

Chris, I asked you on what you based your claim that P & R didn't work, I still do not know. Like someone said previously it worked for some, and who knows what might have transpired had the old first and second division compettition been the reciprient of Sky monies.

I'm sure you do

Exactly the club was broke
Your club win the championship during the p and r era with paltry attendances and the players went on strike because the club wouldn't or couldn't pay them

The council deal was necessary because yet again during the p and r era the club was broke


There was no such thing as administration and many if not most of the clubs involved were members clubs anyway
I know you have a blinkered parochial view if the game but I find your ignorance of or professed ignorance of the trials, tribulations and penury of the clubs within and on the periphery of the debilitating yo yo system hard to believe

Under the old system with sky moneys the yo to teams would have more money to throw down the toilet
I don't know of paul seller either, but I have heard and been to see paul weller(it's the predictive text on my I phone) he tends to go for double breasted ones: personally I go for sharp suits and ox blood loafers. You have heard of paul weller I take it
WELCOME TO THE ROYSTON VASEY SUPER LEAGUE 2015
Keeping it local

#713 Ackroman

Ackroman
  • Coach
  • 1,833 posts

Posted 10 July 2013 - 03:25 PM

1. No, professional rugby league is primarily a business and needs to be run as such.
2.If the Super League is not commercially vibrant the quality of play in field going to suffer as the club's won't be able to pay the players the going rate. British Rugby League is already losing lots if its top talent to the NRL and Union.

3. Reintroducing promotion and relegation will threaten the commercial viability of many of the Super League clubs.


1. No it isn't it's primarily a sport run like a business. Businesses are run to make profits. Sports clubs are run to win trophies. Licencing does nothing to change this fact other than remove the access to opportunities to win trophies.
2. Correct but this is already happening without P&R. For eg the Burgess brothers moved to Aus well after P&R was scrapped. I think you need to blame the salary cap not P&R.
3. The commercial viability of Super League clubs has already been tested under licencing. It's clear too many aren't viable already.

The crux of your argument is that we ensure that money is ring fenced to prop up failures. There is no logic to that argument.

If a club isn't viable outside SL then in my book it's not a club.

#714 JohnM

JohnM
  • Coach
  • 19,936 posts

Posted 10 July 2013 - 03:30 PM

I'm sure you do

Exactly the club was broke
Your club win the championship during the p and r era with paltry attendances and the players went on strike because the club wouldn't or couldn't pay them

The council deal was necessary because yet again during the p and r era the club was broke


There was no such thing as administration and many if not most of the clubs involved were members clubs anyway
I know you have a blinkered parochial view if the game but I find your ignorance of or professed ignorance of the trials, tribulations and penury of the clubs within and on the periphery of the debilitating yo yo system hard to believe

Under the old system with sky moneys the yo to teams would have more money to throw down the toilet
I don't know of paul seller either, but I have heard and been to see paul weller(it's the predictive text on my I phone) he tends to go for double breasted ones: personally I go for sharp suits and ox blood loafers. You have heard of paul weller I take it

 

teams would have more money to throw down the toilet

 

exactly correct in my view.  Dave Whelan is the exception in soccer in that he has the money but  does not waste it ( nor anyone else's)ld have have afforded to buy continuing Premiership soccer for Wigan but saw, I believe, that an average gate of 18,000 was just not enough.  Too many other clubs in too many sports seem to pour money in and fail.


Edited by JohnM, 10 July 2013 - 03:40 PM.


#715 Ackroman

Ackroman
  • Coach
  • 1,833 posts

Posted 10 July 2013 - 03:38 PM

teams would have more money to throw down the toilet
 
exactly correct in my view.  Dave Whelan is the exception in soccer in that he has the money but  does not waste it ( nor anyone else's)ld have have afforded to buy continuing Premiership soccer for Wigan but saw, I believe, that an average gate of 18,000 was just not enough.


But not half as much money that's been squandered in SL on fanciful teams, mergers, litagation and ###### players. Remind me how much Bradford owed, or Wakefield, or London, or the Crusaders...etc etc etc etc etc. A litany of failure rendering SL weak, unattractive and sponsor-less.

IMO the concentration of poor decision making in the last few years has brought about this review. Not the worrying problems that go with PR.

So in order to make comparisons then surely it is only fair to face up to the fact that RL has a history of club failures that just hasn't gone away. It neither gets worse or better regardless of the system.

#716 Jimmy B

Jimmy B
  • Moderator
  • 593 posts

Posted 10 July 2013 - 03:50 PM

I'm sure you do

Exactly the club was broke
Your club win the championship during the p and r era with paltry attendances and the players went on strike because the club wouldn't or couldn't pay them

The council deal was necessary because yet again during the p and r era the club was broke


There was no such thing as administration and many if not most of the clubs involved were members clubs anyway
I know you have a blinkered parochial view if the game but I find your ignorance of or professed ignorance of the trials, tribulations and penury of the clubs within and on the periphery of the debilitating yo yo system hard to believe

Under the old system with sky moneys the yo to teams would have more money to throw down the toilet
I don't know of paul seller either, but I have heard and been to see paul weller(it's the predictive text on my I phone) he tends to go for double breasted ones: personally I go for sharp suits and ox blood loafers. You have heard of paul weller I take it

 

Featherstone Rovers throughout their entire history have always been on the breadline so P & R was not the cause of being broke between 1973 & 1995.

 

Are you saying the players lost monies due to them, and then went on strike because of P & R ?

 

Bankruptcy has been with us longer than 1986 and can affect individuals as well as members clubs - so which clubs went bankrupt due to P & R. ?

 

You know nothing of my veiws on RL, parochial or otherwise and again how does that relate to promotion & Relegation "never working in the past" ?

 

I asked you to justify your claim that P & R never worked between 1973 and 1995.  I think that is a striaght forward question. You have replied with a tirade of criticism (garnished with your usual sarcasm) of your "Old Club" who you once professed to "love" and as yet have come up with an acceptable response.

 

Never mind Chris I will leave it there.

 

Yes I have heard of Paul Weller but I must confess I wouldn't know him if I saw him - I'll just watch out for the one in the double breasted blazer.


Edited by Jimmy B, 10 July 2013 - 03:51 PM.

Lets not forget, Featherstone Rovers is a RUGBY club.

#717 l'angelo mysterioso

l'angelo mysterioso
  • Coach
  • 40,628 posts

Posted 10 July 2013 - 03:57 PM

teams would have more money to throw down the toilet

 

exactly correct in my view.  Dave Whelan is the exception in soccer in that he has the money but  does not waste it ( nor anyone else's)ld have have afforded to buy continuing Premiership soccer for Wigan but saw, I believe, that an average gate of 18,000 was just not enough.  Too many other clubs in too many sports seem to pour money in and fail.

let's not pretend that money hasn't been wasted

PSG for instance. Great idea to have a European dimension by having a french club-wrong part of france. can you imagine if catalans had been in from the word go?


WELCOME TO THE ROYSTON VASEY SUPER LEAGUE 2015
Keeping it local

#718 l'angelo mysterioso

l'angelo mysterioso
  • Coach
  • 40,628 posts

Posted 10 July 2013 - 04:10 PM

Featherstone Rovers throughout their entire history have always been on the breadline so P & R was not the cause of being broke between 1973 & 1995.

 

Are you saying the players lost monies due to them, and then went on strike because of P & R ?

 

Bankruptcy has been with us longer than 1986 and can affect individuals as well as members clubs - so which clubs went bankrupt due to P & R. ?

 

You know nothing of my veiws on RL, parochial or otherwise and again how does that relate to promotion & Relegation "never working in the past" ?

 

I asked you to justify your claim that P & R never worked between 1973 and 1995.  I think that is a striaght forward question. You have replied with a tirade of criticism (garnished with your usual sarcasm) of your "Old Club" who you once professed to "love" and as yet have come up with an acceptable response.

 

Never mind Chris I will leave it there.

 

Yes I have heard of Paul Weller but I must confess I wouldn't know him if I saw him - I'll just watch out for the one in the double breasted blazer.

no clubs went baknrupt under pandr as far as I know, and none have gone bankrupt in the SL era either.

never professed to love a rugby club, ever. I use the term love for my family and friends...it's a word that all to often gets devalued.

The entire history of the game between 1973 and 1995 showed that pandr didn't work-do you want me to write the entire history of the sport within that era? In any case it's been gone over enough. Do you think the game flourished in that era? I'll tell you what I'll check out the most notorious clubs and come up with some info for you-I should know it by heart by now, but I'll make the effort.

 

Your club voted for the deal. Steve Wagner, who was the club's representative at the meeting said that it was essential because of the parlous state the game was in financially, and that was before we even got to the essential nature of having a quality tv deal along with other major sports.

I've read and listened to your views often enough-including the 'bring back the yorkshire cup it were a money spinner' quote.

 

keep polishing that blazer badge.


WELCOME TO THE ROYSTON VASEY SUPER LEAGUE 2015
Keeping it local

#719 l'angelo mysterioso

l'angelo mysterioso
  • Coach
  • 40,628 posts

Posted 10 July 2013 - 04:12 PM

But not half as much money that's been squandered in SL on fanciful teams, mergers, litagation and ###### players. Remind me how much Bradford owed, or Wakefield, or London, or the Crusaders...etc etc etc etc etc. A litany of failure rendering SL weak, unattractive and sponsor-less.

IMO the concentration of poor decision making in the last few years has brought about this review. Not the worrying problems that go with PR.

So in order to make comparisons then surely it is only fair to face up to the fact that RL has a history of club failures that just hasn't gone away. It neither gets worse or better regardless of the system.

well we don't know because it didn't happen

but you are right

 

with p and r waste,and  lack of progress was built into the system

 

what you are talking about is bad decision making, which undoubtedly happened-what angers me is that people dont get called to account.

By the way if it hadn't been for those mergers four clubs would have disappeared, we still have those four clubs.


WELCOME TO THE ROYSTON VASEY SUPER LEAGUE 2015
Keeping it local

#720 John Drake

John Drake
  • Admin
  • 7,545 posts

Posted 10 July 2013 - 04:35 PM

Can we talk about something else yet?

 

Seriously, I've almost locked this thread on numerous occasions because it is just going round and round in circles with the same people regurgitating the same arguments and no one appears to be in any mood to change their opinion on anything anyway.

 

What's the point?


John Drake
Site Admin: TotalRL.com
TotalRL.com
Email: john.drake@totalrl.com





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users