Jump to content


Rugby League World Issue 400 - Out Now!

RUGBY LEAGUE WORLD MAGAZINE - ISSUE 400 - OUT NOW!
84 pages, 38 years of history from Open Rugby to the present day.
Click here for the digital edition to read online via smartphone, tablet and desktop devices including iPhone, iPad, Android & Kindle HD.
Click here to order a copy for delivery by post. Annual subscriptions also available worldwide.
Find out what's inside Issue 400
/ View a Gallery of all 400 covers / WH Smith Branches stocking Issue 400
Read Jamie Jones-Buchanan's Top 5 RLW Interviews including Marwan Koukash, Lee Briers, Gareth Thomas, Steve Ganson & Matt King OBE


League Express

Podcast

Photo
- - - - -

RFL Leadership


  • Please log in to reply
146 replies to this topic

#21 DeadShotKeen

DeadShotKeen
  • Coach
  • 1,230 posts

Posted 20 June 2013 - 02:07 PM

Or it could kill the game.Plus it isn't about watching it on tv,it's about going to a game,whether it be SL,Championship,NCL or any other game.

TV audiences are vital. I'm from a heartland area (Hull) but live in Manchester so consume the vast amount of my RL through my telly. Of course it's good to go to games but it's more important to create games that are attractive to viewers of all kinds. Are we doing this? Not really.

It could kill the game? Elite Euro RL is dead to me anyway but I continue to engage in the debate and campaign for a modern league. I doubt that rugby league (or the appetite for it) could ever completely die and a modern league may well better grow from the ashes of a historic one than through evolution. I think this is what will happen - the game will run itself down and then re-emerge via some new TV/business interest. I live in hope, anyway.

#22 terrywebbisgod

terrywebbisgod
  • Coach
  • 8,099 posts

Posted 20 June 2013 - 02:57 PM

TV audiences are vital. I'm from a heartland area (Hull) but live in Manchester so consume the vast amount of my RL through my telly. Of course it's good to go to games but it's more important to create games that are attractive to viewers of all kinds. Are we doing this? Not really.

It could kill the game? Elite Euro RL is dead to me anyway but I continue to engage in the debate and campaign for a modern league. I doubt that rugby league (or the appetite for it) could ever completely die and a modern league may well better grow from the ashes of a historic one than through evolution. I think this is what will happen - the game will run itself down and then re-emerge via some new TV/business interest. I live in hope, anyway.

I disagree,most games are entertaining and in my view more so than the formulaic NRL games I have seen.Each to there own..By the way ,you've made it to RL Meltdown on twitter.Congratulations.

If you live in Manchester,why not watch salford or Swinton,both teams need all the support they can get.

Or are you happy complaining about the state of the game from your armchair.Clubs need money to improve facilities,set up youth structures  etc,etc,they can't do it unless they have people coming through the turnstiles.


Edited by terrywebbisgod, 20 June 2013 - 03:00 PM.

Once you have tasted excellence,you cannot go back to mediocrity.

#23 Ponterover

Ponterover
  • Coach
  • 1,786 posts

Posted 20 June 2013 - 03:35 PM

Why do we seek to ape the NRL all the time?

 

I take in 2 or 3 of their games per week, depending on when my day off is. By comparison to SL and in particular The KPC, I find the spectacle a little dull.  It's rather like Germany in the soccer world cup, techincally superb, but not very entertaining.

 

We have a great product of our own that is woefully undersold.

 

What I want from the game's leadership in the short to medium term is to fully realise the commercial value of the current set up.  Only then should we even think about venturing further into the UK and we will be able to do so from a position of strength.

 

I do not buy the argument that sponsors won't touch us because we're a northern sport.  Back when SL started, Bradford as an example had a major multi-national (Compaq) as a sponsor.  We were a northern sport then and nothing has changed except that we have got more and more insular and have adopted an "ooooh int it poor ooop north, we're lucky to get the scraps we do" mentality.

 

Well it's not poor up north and we get what we deserve because of a severe lack of commercial effort.


Edited by Ponterover, 20 June 2013 - 03:46 PM.


#24 Ackroman

Ackroman
  • Coach
  • 1,777 posts

Posted 20 June 2013 - 03:36 PM

This thread has similar context to that of the marketability thread started by Martyn Sadler.

Leadership should provide a platform to allow marketeers and operators to work within a well designed and stable plan. Unfortunately RL seems to lurch between one reality and another.

The first reality is a go get 'em strategy that takes the risk of casualties in the hope that enough people will see the momentum and want to join in to replace and improve. The charge of the light brigade effect.

The second is the inevitable strapping up of the wounded and the slow re building of the values that creates the bullish confidence that leads to 1.

Let's be fair though, unless you hit your extremes you don't know what the sport can take in a sustainable way.

If the question is then, what leadership do we need? Well you have to look at what's healthy in both extreme cases and focus on those things as your maketing plan and then allocate funds/opportunities to those elements that can maximise on them. If I was leading the sport I would be doing exactly this.

#25 Maximus Decimus

Maximus Decimus
  • Coach
  • 7,680 posts

Posted 20 June 2013 - 03:50 PM

I disagree,most games are entertaining and in my view more so than the formulaic NRL games I have seen.Each to there own..By the way ,you've made it to RL Meltdown on twitter.Congratulations.

If you live in Manchester,why not watch salford or Swinton,both teams need all the support they can get.

Or are you happy complaining about the state of the game from your armchair.Clubs need money to improve facilities,set up youth structures  etc,etc,they can't do it unless they have people coming through the turnstiles.

 

 

RL Meltdown is far from people melting down most of the time so he shouldn't worry himself. It has taken a good concept from RAWK meltdown of Liverpool fans going way over the top and applied it to RL posts, some of which are borderline negative. Here's a recent comment,

 

"Glad it wasn't just me, I thought it (origin) was a fairly poor game as well." Yeh some meltdown that one...

 

Deadshotkeen's post hardly construes a meltdown. They recently retweeted a tweet saying that they'll never see the attraction in RL, which is a poor man's version of Union so it is in all probability the sort of Union troll that hates RL but still visits RL sites. I'm surprised so many RL fans have latched on to it tbh.

 

Anyway to the original post, we do need clear leadership but often this can itself lead to bad stubborn decisions. It's a bit like the PM on the apprentice who ignores the market research because they are so single minded, I worry that is happening a bit at the moment with the 3 leagues of 8 idea. They certainly seem to favour it from what I've heard.

 

I think the think that irks me the most and I suspect many others is the complete flip-flopping of policies and the lack of any coherent plan. Licensing is what it is and it has its many critics and it looks to be on the way out. However, rather than a subtle changing of the plan we look to be heading towards the total opposite solution, a version of P & R Max. Then after 4/5 years we'll probably decide to go back to the glory days of licensing.

 

I do agree that transparency is so important. If the then RFL had been up front and honest about their intentions regarding London and the Crusaders at least there could be no allegations of corruption. They'd still have been slated but at least they would have been honest and perhaps would have been respected for it. I completely understood the desire for Celtic to be admitted to SL but it certainly felt underhand when they tried to justify it as if they had been included above others in a genuinely fair process and as if their being an expansion club had little to do with it.  

 

Edit: I rarely criticise leaders themselves but I doubt I'm alone in lacking a great deal of confidence in Nigel Wood. Very little about him fills me with hope that he is the right man for this time. (Does this questioning of an RFL official constitute a melt down? Have I just melted down?)


Edited by Maximus Decimus, 20 June 2013 - 03:52 PM.


#26 terrywebbisgod

terrywebbisgod
  • Coach
  • 8,099 posts

Posted 20 June 2013 - 03:53 PM

RL Meltdown is far from people melting down most of the time so he shouldn't worry himself. It has taken a good concept from RAWK meltdown of Liverpool fans going way over the top and applied it to RL posts, some of which are borderline negative. Here's a recent comment,

 

"Glad it wasn't just me, I thought it (origin) was a fairly poor game as well." Yeh some meltdown that one...

 

Deadshotkeen's post hardly construes a meltdown. They recently retweeted a tweet saying that they'll never see the attraction in RL, which is a poor man's version of Union so it is in all probability the sort of Union troll that hates RL but still visits RL sites. I'm surprised so many RL fans have latched on to it tbh.

 

Anyway to the original post, we do need clear leadership but often this can itself lead to bad stubborn decisions. It's a bit like the PM on the apprentice who ignores the market research because they are so single minded, I worry that is happening a bit at the moment with the 3 leagues of 8 idea. They certainly seem to favour it from what I've heard.

 

I think the think that irks me the most and I suspect many others is the complete flip-flopping of policies and the lack of any coherent plan. Licensing is what it is and it has its many critics and it looks to be on the way out. However, rather than a subtle changing of the plan we look to be heading towards the total opposite solution, a version of P & R Max. Then after 4/5 years we'll probably decide to go back to the glory days of licensing.

 

I do agree that transparency is so important. If the then RFL had been up front and honest about their intentions regarding London and the Crusaders at least there could be no allegations of corruption. They'd still have been slated but at least they would have been honest and perhaps would have been respected for it. I completely understood the desire for Celtic to be admitted to SL but it certainly felt underhand when they tried to justify it as if they had been included above others in a genuinely fair process and as if their being an expansion club had little to do with it.  

To me RL meltdown shows the ridiculousness of some peoples train of thought,but hey,each to there own.


Once you have tasted excellence,you cannot go back to mediocrity.

#27 Gav Wilson

Gav Wilson
  • Coach
  • 3,295 posts

Posted 20 June 2013 - 04:19 PM

Edit: I rarely criticise leaders themselves but I doubt I'm alone in lacking a great deal of confidence in Nigel Wood. Very little about him fills me with hope that he is the right man for this time. (Does this questioning of an RFL official constitute a melt down? Have I just melted down?)

 

I wouldn't say that was a meltdown, Deadshotkeen's opening line however, wow... talk about melodramatic!


Posted Image

#28 Maximus Decimus

Maximus Decimus
  • Coach
  • 7,680 posts

Posted 20 June 2013 - 04:21 PM

To me RL meltdown shows the ridiculousness of some peoples train of thought,but hey,each to there own.

 

Questioning whether the Origin was a good game constitutes a meltdown?

 

There are some genuine ones obviously but in between there are too many that are just part of ordinary discussions.



#29 terrywebbisgod

terrywebbisgod
  • Coach
  • 8,099 posts

Posted 20 June 2013 - 04:32 PM

Questioning whether the Origin was a good game constitutes a meltdown?

 

There are some genuine ones obviously but in between there are too many that are just part of ordinary discussions.

Calm down,calm down.


Once you have tasted excellence,you cannot go back to mediocrity.

#30 DeadShotKeen

DeadShotKeen
  • Coach
  • 1,230 posts

Posted 20 June 2013 - 05:12 PM

By the way ,you've made it to RL Meltdown on twitter.Congratulations.

???? I don't even use Twitter, no idea what this means nor have any interest.

If you live in Manchester,why not watch salford or Swinton,both teams need all the support they can get.

What a facile point. Why don't you? They could certainly use you more than your own club, who fielding half a team of kids still embarrassingly beat a full strength Widnes by 10 points on Monday. How satisfying for you, I'm sure.

I have a team, Hull KR, who I would happily support in a structure whereby they could compete on a level playing field. SL with licensing was meant to be that league but the RFL have now determined that they'll just be a moderate side in a tiered format, with a glass ceiling (our chairman even agrees, you may have noticed). I'm a socialist and don't like hierarchy or the idea of engaging willingly in a tiered struggle (this is why I bailed on Hull City a few years ago). I have enough of that in my everyday life (earning a modest income, battling "the man" etc.) - why on Earth would I take that on in my own leisure time? Many will continue to do so and that's their choice. But Hull KR isn't my family - I'm not an absent parent or any kind of despicable absconder, just a fan with some disposable income, probably a better grasp of sporting mechanics than most and the ability to decide if I get value for my money following them. Their crowds will now inevitably fall off and they'll become a financial black hole. That struggle is for others, and almost certainly short-lived. I'd consider following them in a sealed off 2nd tier but my preferred option is supporting a merged Hull side in a franchised league, which, as I say, I will continue to campaign for.

Edited by DeadShotKeen, 20 June 2013 - 05:14 PM.


#31 terrywebbisgod

terrywebbisgod
  • Coach
  • 8,099 posts

Posted 20 June 2013 - 05:18 PM

???? I don't even use Twitter, no idea what this means nor have any interest.What a facile point. Why don't you? They could certainly use you more than your own club, who fielding half a team of kids still embarrassingly beat a full strength Widnes by 10 points on Monday. How satisfying for you, I'm sure.

I have a team, Hull KR, who I would happily support in a structure whereby they could compete on a level playing field. SL with licensing was meant to be that league but the RFL have now determined that they'll just be a moderate side in a tiered format, with a glass ceiling (our chairman even agrees, you may have noticed). I'm a socialist and don't like hierarchy or the idea of engaging willingly in a tiered struggle (this is why I bailed on Hull City a few years ago). I have enough of that in my everyday life (earning a modest income, battling "the man" etc.) - why on Earth would I take that on in my own leisure time? Many will continue to do so and that's their choice. But Hull KR isn't my family - I'm not an absent parent or any despicable absconder, just a fan with some disposable income, probably a better grasp of sporting mechanics than most and the ability to decide if I get value for my money following them. Their crowds will now inevitably fall off and they'll become a financial black hole. That struggle is for others, and almost certainly short-lived. I'd consider following them in a sealed off 2nd tier but my preferred option is supporting a merged Hull side in a franchised league, which, as I say, I will continue to campaign for.

Here we go again,I live in Leeds,so watch Leeds.If i lived in manchester,I'd watch Salford or Swinton.Plus Widnes weren't at full strength.It's called sound development of youth structures.Maybe if other clubs(such as your beloved Rovers) actually developed a strong youth policy,they wouldn't have to import as many below par antipodeans,and maybe,just maybe,we would have a better product.

Keep up the good fight comrade.

So you've bailed on Hull City and now bailed on HKR.Which NRL team are you going to bail on.


Edited by terrywebbisgod, 20 June 2013 - 05:18 PM.

Once you have tasted excellence,you cannot go back to mediocrity.

#32 a.n Other

a.n Other
  • Coach
  • 1,546 posts

Posted 20 June 2013 - 06:44 PM


I'm a socialist and don't like hierarchy or the idea of engaging willingly in a tiered struggle (this is why I bailed on Hull City a few years ago).

A socialist that wants a league that excludes all clubs but for a select few? You may have a different definition of socialism to me.

Edited by a.n Other, 20 June 2013 - 06:44 PM.


#33 l'angelo mysterioso

l'angelo mysterioso
  • Coach
  • 40,268 posts

Posted 20 June 2013 - 07:26 PM

A socialist that wants a league that excludes all clubs but for a select few? You may have a different definition of socialism to me.

I thought the post you are referring to had a great deal of merit, but I struggled with that bit as well.

 

It isn't the government we are talking about here, but a leisure activity that we want to see grow and develop. Let's have a socialist government (or not if it isn't your bag), but bloody hell we're in business here.

But at the same time there are different notions of socialism and heirachies can be quite legitimately be accommodated within them


WELCOME TO THE ROYSTON VASEY SUPER LEAGUE 2015
Keeping it local

#34 DeadShotKeen

DeadShotKeen
  • Coach
  • 1,230 posts

Posted 20 June 2013 - 07:53 PM

Here we go again,I live in Leeds,so watch Leeds.If i lived in manchester,I'd watch Salford or Swinton.Plus Widnes weren't at full strength.It's called sound development of youth structures.Maybe if other clubs(such as your beloved Rovers) actually developed a strong youth policy,they wouldn't have to import as many below par antipodeans,and maybe,just maybe,we would have a better product.
Keep up the good fight comrade.
So you've bailed on Hull City and now bailed on HKR.Which NRL team are you going to bail on.

There's only so good your youth development structure can be with 8K (at a push) fans. It's a vicious circle a club like HKR faces. If you want to believe that Leeds' success is a result of graft and acumen, fine. I think most people know better. It would be difficult to fail to produce good young players at a club like Leeds in a tiered structure where they boss the local bragging rights.

#35 terrywebbisgod

terrywebbisgod
  • Coach
  • 8,099 posts

Posted 20 June 2013 - 07:55 PM

There's only so good your youth development structure can be with 8K (at a push) fans. It's a vicious circle a club like HKR faces. If you want to believe that Leeds' success is a result of graft and acumen, fine. I think most people know better. It would be difficult to fail to produce good young players at a club like Leeds in a tiered structure where they boss the local bragging rights.

Wakefield and Cas have a good youth structure and i believe they have similar gates to HKR.


Once you have tasted excellence,you cannot go back to mediocrity.

#36 DeadShotKeen

DeadShotKeen
  • Coach
  • 1,230 posts

Posted 20 June 2013 - 07:58 PM

A socialist that wants a league that excludes all clubs but for a select few? You may have a different definition of socialism to me.

Socialism applied to sport is a slightly different beast to real life socialism but there are similarities. It's a more commercial socialism where you accept that a line has to be drawn with regard to who does and doesn't participate, however those that do compete do so on an equal footing.

Your beloved P&R system that ruthlessly creates haves and have nots, where the elite few get fat and cream off the smaller sides' talent, whilst we pass collection buckets around the smaller teams' terraces every few years and expect their fans to be grateful just to be there - this is more fundamentally blue collar, socialist and fair is it? It's nothing less than a pro sport caste system. You are very welcome to it.

Edited by DeadShotKeen, 20 June 2013 - 08:02 PM.


#37 Northern Sol

Northern Sol
  • Moderator
  • 16,949 posts

Posted 20 June 2013 - 08:01 PM

As I saw it, Lewis came in at a point when the sport was on a real low, and the RFL was leaking money after the 2000 RWC. He was (for the few years of his tenure at least) made Executive Chairmen, i.e. combining the two top roles, which gave him a lot more power and hence the ability to force things through. He got the sport back on a even keel, but since then we have returned to the structure in place before him, in which the clubs hold most of the power, and the RFL board exists at their sufferance. It’s not Wood, or Barwick, or anybody else at the RFL who is the problem, it is the balance of power and the inability to cover the whole sport in one.

Basically what we need is a benevolent dictator.

 

As I saw it, Lewis came in at a point when the sport was on a real low, and the RFL was leaking money after the 2000 RWC. He was (for the few years of his tenure at least) made Executive Chairmen, i.e. combining the two top roles, which gave him a lot more power and hence the ability to force things through. He got the sport back on a even keel, but since then we have returned to the structure in place before him, in which the clubs hold most of the power, and the RFL board exists at their sufferance. It’s not Wood, or Barwick, or anybody else at the RFL who is the problem, it is the balance of power and the inability to cover the whole sport in one.

Basically what we need is a benevolent dictator.

No, we need a benevolent dictator who knows what he is doing.

 

If we gave Woods supreme power, do you think it would be used wisely?



#38 DeadShotKeen

DeadShotKeen
  • Coach
  • 1,230 posts

Posted 20 June 2013 - 08:02 PM

Wakefield and Cas have a good youth structure and i believe they have similar gates to HKR.

Define "good youth structure". I don't see Wakefield and Cas bothering any imminent Grand Finals somehow. I see a profoundly average team of SL cast-offs and one with a crumbling disaster zone of a stadium respectively. Both financial black holes.

#39 terrywebbisgod

terrywebbisgod
  • Coach
  • 8,099 posts

Posted 20 June 2013 - 08:02 PM

Socialism applied to sport is a slightly different beast to real life socialism but there are similarities. It's a more commercial socialism where you accept that a line has to be drawn with regard to who does and doesn't participate, however those that do compete on an equal footing.

Your beloved P&R system that ruthlessly creates haves and have nots, where the elite few get fat and cream off the smaller sides' talent, whilst we pass collection buckets around the smaller teams' terraces every few years and expect their fans to be grateful just to be there - this is more fundamentally blue collar, socialist and fair is it? It's nothing less than a pro sport caste system. You are very welcome to it.

You seem to have this belief that the "big" clubs raid the "small" clubs continuously.I believe this all started when Wigan ran up a cricket score against HKR over easter this year.However you want it,there will always be "big" clubs and always be "small" clubs.Could the fact that some clubs go under be down to poor management rather than the lack of a utopia you crave so much.


Once you have tasted excellence,you cannot go back to mediocrity.

#40 terrywebbisgod

terrywebbisgod
  • Coach
  • 8,099 posts

Posted 20 June 2013 - 08:05 PM

Define "good youth structure". I don't see Wakefield and Cas bothering any imminent Grand Finals somehow. I see a profoundly average team of SL cast-offs and one with a crumbling disaster zone of a stadium respectively. Both financial black holes.

Given that Wakefield won the Academy GF a few seasons ago and some of those players are now in the 1st team is proof enough,the same can be said of the rich crop of young players in the Cas side.Success isn't achieved overnight.Again,both clubs have been poorly managed,or is that the fault of "big" clubs again.


Once you have tasted excellence,you cannot go back to mediocrity.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users