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Jeremy Forrest sentenced to 5 1/2 years for abducting a minor


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#41 Severus

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 01:05 PM

Most people on her presume that it would have been some kind of one off. There is no evidence of this, he clearly found young girls attractive and there is nothing to suggest that he would have stopped at this 15 year old girl. Who knows how many of his 13/14 year olds that looked a bit older than they were he found attractive and would have fallen in love with?

He groomed an underage girl, it is not difficult to avoid a situation where you will fall in love with a pupil. I very much doubt it just happened one day. They were right to severely punish him and send out a message to any others.


You may well be right but is not think there is any evidence to suggest that Forrest would go on to commit similar crimes with other teenage girls.
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#42 Johnoco

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 02:32 PM

It was hardly an accident, he knew how old she was.

I didn't say it was an accident in his case. But you implied that anyone who has underage sex is a paedophile, but its not quite so black and white.

#43 Northern Sol

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 06:20 PM

I didn't say it was an accident in his case. But you implied that anyone who has underage sex is a paedophile, but its not quite so black and white.

Anyone, by definition, who has sex with an underage is a paedophile, but there can be mitigating circumstances (or indeed aggravating factors).



#44 Northern Sol

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 06:21 PM

They don't have to be but of course it wouldn't make much sense to make a fool of yourself regularly with parents watching.

Or the students.



#45 Johnoco

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 06:32 PM

Anyone, by definition, who has sex with an underage is a paedophile, but there can be mitigating circumstances (or indeed aggravating factors).

Surely a paedophile is someone who likes pre pubescent children? There is a massive difference even in tacky cases like Forrests to that.

#46 Northern Sol

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 06:38 PM

Surely a paedophile is someone who likes pre pubescent children? There is a massive difference even in tacky cases like Forrests to that.

The legal definition is "below the age of consent".



#47 Johnoco

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 06:40 PM

The legal definition is "below the age of consent".

Which varies from country to country.

#48 Northern Sol

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 06:45 PM

Which varies from country to country.

All crimes have slightly different definitions but a murderer is someone who has committed murder according to the laws of the country that the offence took place. And paedophilia is no different.



#49 Johnoco

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 07:22 PM

All crimes have slightly different definitions but a murderer is someone who has committed murder according to the laws of the country that the offence took place. And paedophilia is no different.

So if a man has sex with a 15 year old girl in the UK he is a paedophile but not if he does it in France? The murderers victim is definitely dead in any country tho.

#50 Saintslass

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 08:01 PM

The legal definition is "below the age of consent".

Is it?  Why then are the punishments different?  Sex with a persion aged under 12 years is automatically rape whereas that is not the case for those over 12.  Surely that would suggest that even legally there is some difference attributed to age?

 

eta: just Googled and it would appear that paedophilia is not recognised as a legal term.


Edited by Saintslass, 23 June 2013 - 08:05 PM.


#51 Saintslass

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 08:11 PM

Surely a paedophile is someone who likes pre pubescent children?

That's my understanding of the term too.  A young person of, say, 14 years old, of either gender, can be fully developed physically and so therefore in a sexual sense could quite easily be mistaken for an older individual.  In relation to paedophilia I think we have become distracted by chronological age.  Paedophilia has always been about phsyical development, or rather the lack thereof.  There is no way I could ever consider this man to be in the same category as a man who wants to have sex with a three year old.  The two are worlds apart.



#52 longboard

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 09:28 PM

Is it?  Why then are the punishments different?  Sex with a persion aged under 12 years is automatically rape whereas that is not the case for those over 12.  Surely that would suggest that even legally there is some difference attributed to age?

 

eta: just Googled and it would appear that paedophilia is not recognised as a legal term.

 

Correct. 

 

Paedophilia is a term that is used very loosely in the media and it is often employed incorrectly. The legislation in this country outlines a range of acts that are classed as sexual offences against minors and adults that are both general in application to everybody and also offences that apply to people in certain positions of responsibility. The legislation does not define a type of person, or generic definition, in terms of the acts they commit, but rather it focuses upon actions that are illegal. The headlines along the lines of, "X found guilty of paedophilia." are just media shorthand, or they are just plain lazy, depending on your point of view.

 

The suffix and prefix of paedophilia indicate that the word means something different from that which is intended in much of the media coverage in which the term is used, but that is another topic........................



#53 Northern Sol

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 09:45 PM

Is it?  Why then are the punishments different?  Sex with a persion aged under 12 years is automatically rape whereas that is not the case for those over 12.  Surely that would suggest that even legally there is some difference attributed to age?

 

eta: just Googled and it would appear that paedophilia is not recognised as a legal term.

Sex with a person aged 15 is automatically rape but the police won't necessarily prosecute.



#54 Northern Sol

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 09:46 PM

So if a man has sex with a 15 year old girl in the UK he is a paedophile but not if he does it in France? The murderers victim is definitely dead in any country tho.

Not necessarily. You could be found guilty of murder in the UK but cleared on the grounds of self-defence in the US.



#55 Johnoco

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 10:09 PM

Not necessarily. You could be found guilty of murder in the UK but cleared on the grounds of self-defence in the US.

That's not the argument at all. You said murder not manslaughter.

#56 Northern Sol

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 10:13 PM

That's not the argument at all. You said murder not manslaughter.

No, I said what constitutes murder differs between countries. Murder doesn't mean "killing"; killing could also be "manslaughter" or "self-defence". The exact definition varies between countries.

 

The same with sex; sex can be consensual or it can be rape. The definition of rape differs between countries.



#57 Johnoco

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 10:23 PM

No, I said what constitutes murder differs between countries. Murder doesn't mean "killing"; killing could also be "manslaughter" or "self-defence". The exact definition varies between countries.

The same with sex; sex can be consensual or it can be rape. The definition of rape differs between countries.

It doesn't matter what constitutes murder in individual countries, if someone is done for murder, they are done for murder.

What you are actually arguing for with your 'they are all paedophiles' line, is that everyone involved in a case involving a death (numerous causes/scenarios) is automatically labelled as a murderer.

#58 Northern Sol

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 10:42 PM

It doesn't matter what constitutes murder in individual countries, if someone is done for murder, they are done for murder.

What you are actually arguing for with your 'they are all paedophiles' line, is that everyone involved in a case involving a death (numerous causes/scenarios) is automatically labelled as a murderer.

No, I'm not, I'm arguing that somebody done for underage sex is a paedophile just as someone done for murder is a murderer. That's how the law sees it.

 

As longboard referred to above, other sections of society e.g. the medical profession might define paedophilia differently.



#59 Johnoco

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 10:53 PM

No, I'm not, I'm arguing that somebody done for underage sex is a paedophile just as someone done for murder is a murderer. That's how the law sees it.

As longboard referred to above, other sections of society e.g. the medical profession might define paedophilia differently.

So a man (or woman) having sex with a 15 year old in the UK is a paedophile but not if they travel to France to do it?
You are saying there are no shades of grey in the matter. There are though.

#60 Severus

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 06:34 AM

Is it? Why then are the punishments different? Sex with a persion aged under 12 years is automatically rape whereas that is not the case for those over 12. Surely that would suggest that even legally there is some difference attributed to age?

eta: just Googled and it would appear that paedophilia is not recognised as a legal term.

You sure it's 12, I thought statutory rape was anyone under 16.
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