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#241 old papa

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 05:37 PM

Well Pops good to hear that you won't stand to be bullied by anyone and that you are protective of this forum, as there is absolutely no room in our game for bullying tactics. It's my opinion that there are major problems with the summer game but I do respect your opinion so I hope that we can agree to disagree for the moment.

 

Importantly, we do have common ground with the retention of young players once they've been through the RFL talent machine and tossed aside, without these young players the damage done to the amateur open age game will be irreversable.

 

I totally agree with you that Stuart Prior would have been the best person at the top to take this problem by the scruff of the neck to sort out the retention of the young players. However ultimately, it is the clubs' responsibility to stand up to the RFL tacticts/policies that are dragging the open age amateur game so close to the abyss.  

I am not saying that the summer game does not have problems which I think we have not yet addressed but will need too if the summer season is going to continue. But if the NCL clubs want changes we have to take them to the management. With regards to Stuart Prior I think if I was Sue I would be asking Stuart to head a team to negotiate on behalf of Barla the youth debate.



#242 TaxiEgg

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 05:52 PM

Old papa where do the NCL get their players from ?

Not exactly sure which side of the Pennines you sit but outside the NCL first team fixtures in the NW over 40% of games in the reserve grade where conceded 24-0 the youth fixtures for the second season running have been decimated .
The NCL under your rationale is no different than the Barla brazer brigade in thinking that as long as the premier comp is working then everything else is irrelevant .

Wrong and if people like myself using every avenue possible are wrong to highlight the shortfalls then how do you expect we raise our concerns then so be it .

We have a community board which is about as much use as a chocolate fire guard rubber stamping policies which are detrimental to the community game .

So it's now time for a revolution of the grass roots to take out the nodding donkeys and to defend the very excistance of the democracy of the amateur game , gloves are off .

Edited by TaxiEgg, 07 July 2013 - 05:56 PM.


#243 Nev V Dawn

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 06:06 PM

I am not saying that the summer game does not have problems which I think we have not yet addressed but will need too if the summer season is going to continue. But if the NCL clubs want changes we have to take them to the management. With regards to Stuart Prior I think if I was Sue I would be asking Stuart to head a team to negotiate on behalf of Barla the youth debate.

 

There's quite a few "ifs" in that statement Pops, too many for my liking to be convinced that you are comfortably at home with the summer switch.

 

From what I am hearing Mr Prior does have options but from his "chest clearance" post when he named at least two people he couldn't work with, I would say that there wouldn't be many numbers in a BARLA negotiating team on the youth debate.

 

My thoughts would be to try and unite the youth/junior leagues in the North West which would bring more power to the elbow when dealing with the RFL. Whether this would be by them taking up full BARLA membership remains questionable and could be too early to consider, but I'm sure if that did happen, they would get a lot better and more honest representation at the community board than they are offered at the moment under their present representative.

 

The amateur open age game needs to be united with a strong youth/junior section of the game to be in control of each section's destiny. It might seem like rolling back the years Pops and you may ask the question, if everything was working so well, why has it been broken.


Edited by Nev V Dawn, 07 July 2013 - 06:11 PM.


#244 old papa

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 07:00 PM

Old papa where do the NCL get their players from ?

Not exactly sure which side of the Pennines you sit but outside the NCL first team fixtures in the NW over 40% of games in the reserve grade where conceded 24-0 the youth fixtures for the second season running have been decimated .
The NCL under your rationale is no different than the Barla brazer brigade in thinking that as long as the premier comp is working then everything else is irrelevant .

Wrong and if people like myself using every avenue possible are wrong to highlight the shortfalls then how do you expect we raise our concerns then so be it .

We have a community board which is about as much use as a chocolate fire guard rubber stamping policies which are detrimental to the community game .

So it's now time for a revolution of the grass roots to take out the nodding donkeys and to defend the very excistance of the democracy of the amateur game , gloves are off .

 I am on the East side Taxi Egg I am niether A RFL Man or a Barla Man  I too do not have a lot of faith in the community board but Likewise I dont have much faith in Barla. Maybe the changes may change my mind. I know they are a lot of hard working people involved on both of these boards I just wish they could all get together and sort our game out. I am fully aware that the summer does not meet everybodies needs. I said in a earlier post that I am totally with you on the youth and I believe that a total switch back to some form of winter season for the youth at amateur level is the only way forward. I am totally against dual registration for the NCL although maybe where a under 20s player that is not getting selected returning to their junior club and only their junior club that  maybe a step in right direction to keep players in the game. but   not like the link with super league and championship clubs were just a  community club is linked to a pro club to take players and they use them as their reserve team.   



#245 Cutsyke Raiders

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 07:12 PM

. I am totally against dual registration for the NCL although maybe where a under 20s player that is not getting selected returning to their junior club and only their junior club that  maybe a step in right direction to keep players in the game.  

You are partially for dual registration then... 



#246 old papa

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 07:51 PM

You are partially for dual registration then... 

only if they are players that are not on full contracts and not playing in the championship or super league ie a player that as gone to the pro club to try and get a contract but as not yet signed any pro forms ie Amateur form only  ( Like the good old days when players were call another or anewman.) I Believe they call it T & C nowadays. You can not stop a lad from trying to get a pro contract and if the chance comes his way to go to one of these clubs he should be encouraged Is this  not what every player whats to do when he is coming up through the junior ranks.  but he should also be encouraged to return to his junior club when he is not playing.  I Do not agree with full pro's just looking to use the NCL Or any other league to get their players back to fitness. I believe that every player must sign some form of registration at whatever level they play for insurance purposes so yes that is the form of dual registration I agree too. Amateur players trying to make a career out of professional Rugby League. should not be banned from playing at their Commutiny club just because they have are training and playing the odd game for a pro club. Didnt we once slate the RFU for doing exactly the same a few years ago. just to recap I do not agree with fully contracted players playing in a Amateur League Competition. 



#247 Cutsyke Raiders

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 08:40 PM

only if they are players that are not on full contracts etc...

This is what concerns me.

We already have 2 of the NCL management that want some form of dual registration and now yourself, a management member of the RFL Yorkshire Men's League. advocating some form of it. 

Speaking to people around the clubs I have found this to be unpopular for several reasons.

 

The clubs, via democratic rule changes, should decide if they want it, not anyone else.



#248 old papa

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 06:32 AM

Totally agree clubs should make the rule on this but a few years ago T & C players could play in the NCL and I am not sure but I think that is still the case

That is all I am saying. This is my own opinion just like everybody else I do have one !!!!



#249 Nev V Dawn

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 06:57 AM

 I am on the East side Taxi Egg I am niether A RFL Man or a Barla Man    

 

This is what concerns me.

We already have 2 of the NCL management that want some form of dual registration and now yourself, a management member of the RFL Yorkshire Men's League. advocating some form of it. 

Speaking to people around the clubs I have found this to be unpopular for several reasons.

 

The clubs, via democratic rule changes, should decide if they want it, not anyone else.

 

 

 

Dear me Pops, we've not been entirely honest have we. In one post you say you are neither RFL or BARLA man and then our friend at Castleford exposes you as part of the RFL Yorkshire Men's League management.



#250 casyorkie

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 08:46 AM

 

 

Dear me Pops, we've not been entirely honest have we. In one post you say you are neither RFL or BARLA man and then our friend at Castleford exposes you as part of the RFL Yorkshire Men's League management.

 

So you have to be only rfl to be on summer management competitions and Barla man for winter ones.

 

Some people have very low opionions of people on this board that they wont stand up for what they beleive in.

 

Im not sure but is Taxi egg on a youth management set up does that mean he is pure barla or RFL because even thou he things there are big prbolems with youth in summer ( i agree) he also points out problems with Barla.



#251 Nev V Dawn

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 09:33 AM

So you have to be only rfl to be on summer management competitions and Barla man for winter ones.

 

Some people have very low opionions of people on this board that they wont stand up for what they beleive in.

 

Im not sure but is Taxi egg on a youth management set up does that mean he is pure barla or RFL because even thou he things there are big prbolems with youth in summer ( i agree) he also points out problems with Barla.

 

No Cassy you're completely missing the point. The RFL Yorkshire Men's League is an RFL concept and managed league run under the RFL operational rules and obviously the controversial MOU. So on that basis it's quite easy then to make the assumption that Old Papa has an allegiance with the RFL.

 

Nobody mentioned the time in which it operates summer/winter, until you burst in on the scene



#252 casyorkie

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 09:49 AM

No Cassy you're completely missing the point. The RFL Yorkshire Men's League is an RFL concept and managed league run under the RFL operational rules and obviously the controversial MOU. So on that basis it's quite easy then to make the assumption that Old Papa has an allegiance with the RFL.

 

Nobody mentioned the time in which it operates summer/winter, until you burst in on the scene

I mentioned summer and winter as i feel thats the way the dicsussion is going that a few on here believe if you are pro winter then you are Barla and pro summer RFL

 

What ever choice the RFL Yorskhire mens league decide i dont beleive it will make that big a difference.

 

I perosnally dont agree with dual reg with amateur clubs but can see some argument in letting lads (acadamy not anyone who has played first team) go back to there old club if they are not playing.I still think this could lead to arguments where lads maybe spent most of their time at one club then at under 15's changed club which club should he go back to.

 

This would only paper over the cracks regarding youth.

 

Youth players are the biggest problem we have in amateur rugby at the present time and im not sure how if junior teams play summer how switching back at youth to winter would work but it does seem summer ( the lack of support from the RFL for the national youth league) is not working.



#253 Nev V Dawn

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 10:50 AM

I mentioned summer and winter as i feel thats the way the dicsussion is going that a few on here believe if you are pro winter then you are Barla and pro summer RFL

 

What ever choice the RFL Yorskhire mens league decide i dont beleive it will make that big a difference.

 

I perosnally dont agree with dual reg with amateur clubs but can see some argument in letting lads (acadamy not anyone who has played first team) go back to there old club if they are not playing.I still think this could lead to arguments where lads maybe spent most of their time at one club then at under 15's changed club which club should he go back to.

 

This would only paper over the cracks regarding youth.

 

Youth players are the biggest problem we have in amateur rugby at the present time and im not sure how if junior teams play summer how switching back at youth to winter would work but it does seem summer ( the lack of support from the RFL for the national youth league) is not working.

 

I think if you look at the BARLA Cumbria ARL which is actually a BARLA sponsored/supported league that actually plays in a non traditional season then you would be wrong to class winter as pro BARLA. Obviously there are BARLA leagues that still wish to remain playing a traditional season but BARLA have kept an open mind on this issue from day one.

 

I feel that the majority of clubs not only don't want duel reg, but don't need duel reg and the complications that go with it. However the policy is within the RFL's all sport plan, which they will be desperate to implement (as promised to Sport England) throughout all RFL administered leagues which does indeed include the NCL.

 

There is an argument for the youth players to be allowed duel reg but this diminished somewhat when the academy terms and conditions was done away with and worryingly we had a taste of players being re-directed to "foster clubs" in the service area days of not so long ago. And I'm sure that you'll agree that some old habits are hard to get away from. 

 

Youth is a major concern within the amateur game at present and this has been developing for a number of years coinciding with the RFL's relentless pursuit for talent. The switch back to a more traditional season for this area of the game would certainly avoid conflict with the professional academies which have had a massive impact on youth rugby especially in Lancashire where disruption of the amateur game has been unbelievable.

 

Maybe a switch back to a more traditional season under a BARLA supported National youth league could be a workable solution that could be looming who knows. But one thing is concrete Cassy, if the trend that sees scores of young players making an exodus from the amateur game for various reasons does continue, then the open age amateur game would eventually crumble.


Edited by Nev V Dawn, 08 July 2013 - 11:38 AM.


#254 TaxiEgg

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 11:34 AM

Spot on Nev, but can people now see how things have been manipulated if you support summer your RFL if you support winter/traditional season your Barla , what a load of male genitals .

We want what is best for the game no matter when we play ,I wont bore people by re printing the paper I wrote on the four seasons debate which many administrators who were blinded by the spin did not even acknowledge receipt but reading it again clearly illustrates all the problems I predicted have bore fruit, and we see ourselves two years down the line a more fragmented sport than ever.

This week end highlights many problems good sides getting hammered with 80 + youth leagues being awarded to teams part way through a season the NW mens league having over 40 % games conceded 24-0 .

The game is in a mess and all the RFL are bothered about is the elite program ,but one thing they are missing in their master plan is to get elite players you need elite competition what we are getting is a shambles and quality kids leaving the game in droves , but never mind there is always the BBQ,s to fall back on .

#255 impartial

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 11:47 AM

Just a note at Mondays NCL Meeting at the end of the meeting it was time for A.O.B Not one club said anything about a switch back to winter well if my club was so against the summer season I for one would have let me feeling know to the management. Even if it would have fallen flat on it face or not. So that tells me one of 2 things No 1 clubs officials are frightened to say anything ( which I know most are not ) or No 2 The NCL clubs are Happy with the summer. ??? Maybe it is time to smell the coffee and take the winter summer debate onto the Community Forum instead.

Yes you are quite correct when, AOB was brought up at the meeting no one took up the opportunity to raise the issue of summer and winter but, what you fail to mention is that at the previous NCL meeting it was brought up in AOB. However, we was told by Peter Moran that there will be no discussions for three years MOVE ON next item. Maybe people dont want to be embarrased and more importantly waste their breath in asking again for a debate.



#256 Nev V Dawn

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 12:16 PM

Yes you are quite correct when, AOB was brought up at the meeting no one took up the opportunity to raise the issue of summer and winter but, what you fail to mention is that at the previous NCL meeting it was brought up in AOB. However, we was told by Peter Moran that there will be no discussions for three years MOVE ON next item. Maybe people dont want to be embarrased and more importantly waste their breath in asking again for a debate.

 

Oh dear Pops. Obviously this must have been a meeting that you didn't attend or was it simply another example of "selective memory recall" that runs rife in the democratically run NCL where, on the basis of this, it does seem that it's club delegates are offered an amount of unfair subjucation from the men at the top.

 

I wonder if this any other business appeared in the minutes of the said meeting, or was it deemed of no importance to record.


Edited by Nev V Dawn, 08 July 2013 - 02:06 PM.


#257 Nev V Dawn

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 02:00 PM

 

Spot on Nev, but can people now see how things have been manipulated if you support summer your RFL if you support winter/traditional season your Barla , what a load of ###### .

We want what is best for the game no matter when we play ,I wont bore people by re printing the paper I wrote on the four seasons debate which many administrators who were blinded by the spin did not even acknowledge receipt but reading it again clearly illustrates all the problems I predicted have bore fruit, and we see ourselves two years down the line a more fragmented sport than ever.

This week end highlights many problems good sides getting hammered with 80 + youth leagues being awarded to teams part way through a season the NW mens league having over 40 % games conceded 24-0 .

The game is in a mess and all the RFL are bothered about is the elite program ,but one thing they are missing in their master plan is to get elite players you need elite competition what we are getting is a shambles and quality kids leaving the game in droves , but never mind there is always the BBQ,s to fall back on .

 

Thanks Taxi Egg at least two of us can see the manipulation and innuendo involved with the "Four Seasons issue" and a lot of it in my opinion is caused by a "brick thrown" by someone in position. And all without the help of the listeners at Menwith Hill Raider. 

 

I think that I had sight of your "Four Seasons paper" a couple of years ago which I can honestly say did not bore me and did in my opinion without prejudice, highlight certain problems which could affect and subsequently have, affected the amateur game. You could now be excused for saying I told you so. My thoughts on reading that document that was it was thoughtfully drawn by a person/persons with the amateur game, its clubs, leagues and players at heart. To display the sincerity of your intentions I would draw attention to the last passage in the paper which read;

 

"In conclusion the majority of the shareholders in the game are the amateur clubs and we should afford them the Respect of an alternative, and not be driven down one path."

 

You're totally correct on your comment with the RFL elite programme and the need for an elite competition in the amateur game which is just not provided. This has now been sacrificed to the wider game just to appease the professional clubs, who collect the star players like stamps and are now offered their own elite professional academy competition sadly, much to the detriment of hundreds of players, who have now been left to sieve through the debris and disruption caused in their once strong competition.

 

I enjoyed my barbeque yesterday whilst - with my family - enjoying a glorious, sun drenched, afternoon, sharing with millions of other TV viewers a sporting spectacle in which an achievement was made, occurring for the first time in nearly eight decades. It made me proud to be Scottish British. 


Edited by Nev V Dawn, 08 July 2013 - 02:03 PM.


#258 del capo

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 03:37 PM

Yes you are quite correct when, AOB was brought up at the meeting no one took up the opportunity to raise the issue of summer and winter but, what you fail to mention is that at the previous NCL meeting it was brought up in AOB. However, we was told by Peter Moran that there will be no discussions for three years MOVE ON next item. Maybe people dont want to be embarrased and more importantly waste their breath in asking again for a debate.

 

It was actually Trevor Hunt in the Chair impartial who commented . And the meeting was in february  , the pre- season one for the 2013 campaign , hardly the right time to reappraise. There will clearly be a review prior to next season's kick off , which will then have taken it up to the third year of the arrangement..

 

But I simply don't buy into the view that the NCL delegates are too  embarrasssed , timid or plain frightened to raise issues in debate. The fixture formula , discipline and fines being only some of the topics getting lively debate in the recent past..



#259 impartial

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 04:23 PM

It was actually Trevor Hunt in the Chair impartial who commented . And the meeting was in february  , the pre- season one for the 2013 campaign , hardly the right time to reappraise. There will clearly be a review prior to next season's kick off , which will then have taken it up to the third year of the arrangement..

 

But I simply don't buy into the view that the NCL delegates are too  embarrasssed , timid or plain frightened to raise issues in debate. The fixture formula , discipline and fines being only some of the topics getting lively debate in the recent past..

I apologise Del Capo in relation to saying it was Peter Moran. However, Trevor is a member of the managemnt committee and the answer to the question raised in AOB still received the same response, what i am trying to say is that it is obviously a waste of time raising the question when you will only receive the same response as mentioned in my previous post..



#260 LordCharles

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 04:35 PM

According to Trevor Hunt during a phone in debate yesterday on GMR radio the return to winter for the amatuers is not on the cards. He agreed there were some issues that needed to be addressed, but overall felt summer was a better option and the amatuer game would remain playing from March - November.






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