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#361 once a ref always a ref

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 08:16 AM

I think that I'd tend to agree with Marauder on this one.

 

 

I suppose it was bound to happen eventually.  There is always one.


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#362 LordCharles

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 08:17 AM

Now here is a good point for you. the next community board meeting has the big wig of Sport England attending, the very person I would love to chew some fat with. Sue Taylor will attend for BARLA and knows nothing about youth and Junior so I hope Charlie Bray can steer our future.

 

Some people have a fantastic sense of humour!

 

I'm sure Sue Taylor will have done her homework and be prepared as well as she can be during the short time she has been in office to take her first step in to world of the Community Board. 


Edited by LordCharles, 15 July 2013 - 08:23 AM.


#363 Wilber

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 08:24 AM

I’ve seen this document doing the rounds for the past day or so and from this sort of thinking from the chair of an amateur league, it reinforces the post from Historical Value that this long running thread was opened with;

(message starts)

Hi secretaries

I have also sent this to all the under 16s delegats on my list (I hope).

Please can you help out in any way.


It has been brought to my attention that at least 144 under 16s players are expected to turn up for trials at Ince Rose Bridge on Wednesday 17 July.


May I suggest, that in the best interests of the players, that these trials are delayed until the players know where their future lies within the professional body of our game.

It is likely that those players who will be signed professionally will not then be eligible to play for Lancashire Under 17s and it seems to me that it could be a waste of time and effort for all coaches and players, if at the end of the month some of the players find out that they will not be eligible to trialbecause of their professinal commitments.


Can I please appeal to your better nature and ask you to delay the date of these trials by at least three weeks, if not four or five.

Thanking you for your anticipated support.


Hilary Steel M.B.E.
Chair/Secretary
North West Youth

(message ends)

 

It’s very hard for me to comprehend the thinking behind this message, especially the paragraph highlight by bold. All well and good, if unlikely as it may be, the 144 players concerned are going to secure professional contracts well that’s great and the respective clubs that have nurtured them for the past eight years or so, should take a bow for a job well done. Also credit their coaches for coaching enough players to a level to displace, “144 past their sell by date overseas players” from the English professional game.

 

However sadly it appears that the chair of NWC Youth seems not to be content at just sacrificing youth rugby at club level to the RFL academies, this looks like a definite drive to scupper a well respected higher level competition. What happened the players having a choice?

 

The message I get from this is that the amateur game ends at youth level so the clubs may as well scrap all their open age teams or just let them wither.

 

Dave Yates Response,

 

FYI

 

Evening Hilary,

As co-coach of BARLA 17s Lancashire I have taken advice from the County Committee and been asked to respond on their behalf.
It is incredibly encouraging to us, that so many people, hitherto not involved, have developed such an interest in our 2013 campaign since our inception a few years ago. Testament to this is just how many players are keen to don the red rose jersey, clearly the fact that we have won the Tri-County Series each year since it's been in recent existence, coupled with the opportunity to then progress on to represent their country on the GB Tour that follows each year is obviously a hugely attractive opportunity for the players.

We thank you for your concerns and have considered them very seriously but we have decided to go ahead with the Trials as planned.
The pitfalls you have highlighted are not unique to this year, we have had the same situation in every previous year also and have coped very well and will continue to cope.

Please be assured we take our responsibilities as seriously as you clearly do and with the likes of all us folks around, the players are surely in good hands, as I'm sure you'll agree.

To the contacts on Hilary's list: It's a little disconcerting you've been circulated with Hilary's concerns when the County Committee were still considering them but nonetheless, yes her sources are correct, we have 144 players trialling over two separate nights, we'll have a number of position specific selectors on duty each night as players are selected on their performance and not their reputation.
We will let players know through their Clubs if successful.

As a lot of you are already aware we have worked hard accommodating your nominations, paying attention to holidays etc to try and make sure as many as possible can get a fair crack. We are too far down the line now to rearrange the dates. We need to have the train on squad named for start of August so we can plan our weekly training leading up to the October matches.

We are proud Lancastrians and a delay as Hilary suggests will compress our preparations to an unacceptable degree and may harm our chances of retaining the Championship, something we are not, in these circumstances, prepared to do as we intend to do our best for our County and the players in our charge.

In our list of nominations we are already aware of those players fortunate enough to be scholars and IF these players trial successfully AND IF they are subsequently awarded a contract of sorts that makes them then ineligible then, in previous years we have had a shadow squad in reserve, which we draw from and this year will be no different.

Hilary, all is well - the players are in caring, experienced volunteers hands - it's worked very well these past few years and we see no reason for this year to be any different but we thank you for raising your concerns and thus enabling us to have the opportunity to respectfully respond and hopefully put them to bed.

Yours in Sport
Dave Yates



#364 LordCharles

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 08:26 AM

And your point is?



#365 Wilber

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 08:47 AM

My Point is I thought it was a good response, what point did you think I was trying to make>?



#366 LordCharles

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 08:49 AM

Not sure thats why I asked, I'm still confused about the original e-mail from NWC and its purpose to be honest!


Edited by LordCharles, 15 July 2013 - 08:50 AM.


#367 Wilber

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 09:01 AM

My point would be is the game does not stop just because the professionals may want to sigh 10-20 players for a cohort of 144. Hilary has asked Lancashire to put a program on hold to accommodate them.

 

You will find that a number of lads have actually not put themselves forward because they believe they are already getting a  contract.

 

Perhaps the email should have been written to the pro clubs suggesting they stop wasting the other 120 players times they are not going to sign.

 

Just my take on it J


Edited by Wilber, 15 July 2013 - 09:02 AM.


#368 del capo

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 09:42 AM

I don't really understand the spat on this one Wilber.

 

Surely it's for Lancs County to go about raising their squad the way they choose. It's inevitable that such  sessions will have the pro scouts ( both Union and League ) all over the show  to trawl as we know they do , promising Disneyland ,  but at least there appear to be back up selection processes in place to cover potential losses. Perhaps Hilary is suggesting that the timing of  the County 's  Trials will actually help the Pro's in the identification / culling  process ?

 

 

This thread has moved in entertaining ways , and encompassed  on occasions not immediately relevant topics to the NCL.

 

Someone asked about the NCL and dual registration. The present answer is quite simple. It is not allowed . Some leagues do allow it and there has been considerable discussion on the topic. Wilber sits / used to sit on Regulatory and will tell you that the overall framework will provide for it to happen but that any implementation will be a competition issue and therefor  essentially a matter for the Management concerned.

 

If dual registration is ever considered for adoption by NCL , it is likely to be extremely tightly controlled and aimed primarily at the very kids who find themselves in the mincer in part by virtue of the recruitment processes alluded to above.

 

On an issue such as this I would expect the NCL committee to fully consult with it's members.



#369 Wilber

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 10:27 AM

I don't really understand the spat on this one Wilber.

 

Surely it's for Lancs County to go about raising their squad the way they choose. It's inevitable that such  sessions will have the pro scouts ( both Union and League ) all over the show  to trawl as we know they do , promising Disneyland ,  but at least there appear to be back up selection processes in place to cover potential losses. Perhaps Hilary is suggesting that the timing of  the County 's  Trials will actually help the Pro's in the identification / culling  process ?

 

 

 

 

The point being the Pro clubs are leaving it very late to announce who they want to sign when in the past it was done by April/May.

 

Hilary is suggesting we should wait for them when my opinion they already know who they want to sign and another 4 weeks will not make a jot to their decision but they will keep a lot of kids waiting.

 

Yes your right the trial will unearth all the scouts to come and have a look but if they don't know now who they want then they are not very good at their job, so why the delay if not to control the whole sport?

 

This age Group is becoming increasingly specific to OA Rugby, or its RIP as the thread may suggest. the longer you leave it the more likely lads will walk.

 

That's just the way I think; others have their opinions, im not saying im right but you know me with my spats with the pro clubs



#370 sbull

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 11:02 AM

Yes, can, t fathom the hunslet one. Ince look they are struggling to compete at the moment. Don, t know whats going on but the have a good set up and will come allright again even if it has to be in div 1

If you go behind in that weather with a weakened team theres alaways a chance of it happening

 

all teams play the same amount of games away and home, but personally I don't think a team should have to play 9 out of ten games away which what IRB have done, a  lot of Lads are in the building Game and cant affords to give up work for so many weekends on the trot,  but never mind I suppose all teams suffer that way, I just wish we had somebody more experienced when it come to arranging fixtures. 



#371 casyorkie

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 11:32 AM

I don't really understand the spat on this one Wilber.

 

Surely it's for Lancs County to go about raising their squad the way they choose. It's inevitable that such  sessions will have the pro scouts ( both Union and League ) all over the show  to trawl as we know they do , promising Disneyland ,  but at least there appear to be back up selection processes in place to cover potential losses. Perhaps Hilary is suggesting that the timing of  the County 's  Trials will actually help the Pro's in the identification / culling  process ?

 

 

This thread has moved in entertaining ways , and encompassed  on occasions not immediately relevant topics to the NCL.

 

Someone asked about the NCL and dual registration. The present answer is quite simple. It is not allowed . Some leagues do allow it and there has been considerable discussion on the topic. Wilber sits / used to sit on Regulatory and will tell you that the overall framework will provide for it to happen but that any implementation will be a competition issue and therefor  essentially a matter for the Management concerned.

 

If dual registration is ever considered for adoption by NCL , it is likely to be extremely tightly controlled and aimed primarily at the very kids who find themselves in the mincer in part by virtue of the recruitment processes alluded to above.

 

On an issue such as this I would expect the NCL committee to fully consult with it's members.

Del capo when you say fully consult with its members would you beleive that it would be for them to vote or would management make the final decision



#372 Spidey

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 12:54 PM

Del capo when you say fully consult with its members would you beleive that it would be for them to vote or would management make the final decision

 

Any change of rule would mean a change to the constitution which would have to be voted on.  They cannot implement rules without this (AFAIK)



#373 del capo

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 12:57 PM

CasYorkie - I would expect the Management to explore all aspects and if appropriate at that stage make recommendations.That debate is yet to happen.

Contrary to what some posters on here continue to chime, the NCL committeee is responsible for and to no-one other than its clubs. I believe this subject is fundamental. It needs proper investigation and IF the Committee feel able to recommend , wider debate within the clubs  . For me it would thereafter  be a voting matter.

 

Wilber - You know we agree on much more than we don't. Yes the young guns are already  identified I am sure but the cauldron of Academy  / Scholarship is reaching boiling point and maybe that is causing delay in the Pro ranks ?

 

And you are spot on when you say that this Age Group is becoming increasingly relevant to Open Age . Should all the Senior Playing Leagues in their areas  not now be taking  real steps to assist , and in turn move towards ensuring  the player pool for their futures ?



#374 Marauder

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 04:48 PM

Now here is a good point for you. the next community board meeting has the big wig of Sport England attending, the very person I would love to chew some fat with. Sue Taylor will attend for BARLA and knows nothing about youth and Junior so I hope Charlie Bray can steer our future.

I'm sure Charlie will have 10,000 questions to ask while at the helm.


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#375 old fiddle

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 08:03 PM

I think that I'd tend to agree with Marauder on this one.
 
With all the smoke slowly clearing from the mirrors, it's becoming clear that it's just an old tune being played on a new fiddle,


Not sure what you are insinuating, but you can,t complain about a shortage of players in one breath and be happy about ex ncl players kicking their heels on pay as you play contracts in another. What harm is there in letting them return to their amateur club when not selected. It's no different than the old trialist, an other system. It's now obvious that the standards of some of the individuals in championship one is similar to the best players in ncl. So it should not have a massive bearing on the league, plus everyone will be in same boat

The pro clubs would not like it, so is that not reason enough to try make it work. I know there will be the calls that you have to register and you are not covered by insurance, maybe even health and safety, but IMO they are just red herrings

#376 Marauder

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 08:25 PM

Not sure what you are insinuating, but you can,t complain about a shortage of players in one breath and be happy about ex ncl players kicking their heels on pay as you play contracts in another. What harm is there in letting them return to their amateur club when not selected. It's no different than the old trialist, an other system. It's now obvious that the standards of some of the individuals in championship one is similar to the best players in ncl. So it should not have a massive bearing on the league, plus everyone will be in same boat

The pro clubs would not like it, so is that not reason enough to try make it work. I know there will be the calls that you have to register and you are not covered by insurance, maybe even health and safety, but IMO they are just red herrings

What happens when the championship clubs want their player/players back & the guy who hasn't had a game for a couple of weeks because he is deemed to be the weakest link when the luxury of having championship players available & he says "I've decided to work", or "I'm taking the family to the coast"


Carlsberg don't do Soldiers, but if they did, they would probably be Brits.



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#377 once a ref always a ref

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 08:27 PM

 But you are forgetting that in his two weeks off he could get married and go on holiday so everyone is happy. Next.


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#378 Nev V Dawn

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 07:11 AM

Not sure what you are insinuating, but you can,t complain about a shortage of players in one breath and be happy about ex ncl players kicking their heels on pay as you play contracts in another. What harm is there in letting them return to their amateur club when not selected. It's no different than the old trialist, an other system. It's now obvious that the standards of some of the individuals in championship one is similar to the best players in ncl. So it should not have a massive bearing on the league, plus everyone will be in same boat

The pro clubs would not like it, so is that not reason enough to try make it work. I know there will be the calls that you have to register and you are not covered by insurance, maybe even health and safety, but IMO they are just red herrings

 

Quite clearly the player pool is rapidly dropping to drought level following the decision by the RFL to switch the game to summer. This was a decision made by the RFL in order to implement the pyramid structure to support the professional game built from Super league downwards with totally no regard to the amateur game.



#379 Death to the Rah Rah's

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 07:58 AM

Sue Taylor has to be given time to find her feet, and unfortunately for her has been thrown in at the deep end in a very uncertain time for the amateur game.

Maybe BARLA need to change tactics slightly and speak to all the amateur clubs to try and find the real root of the problems within the game and make a presentation to Sport England based on the findings of 75% of the game rather than allowing the RFL to ride rough shot over all of us with their 'big brother knows best' attitude.

At the end of the day it is the amateur clubs who are working at the coal face and they know more about the game than probably most of the RFL employees.

#380 Death to the Rah Rah's

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 08:08 AM

Quite clearly the player pool is rapidly dropping to drought level following the decision by the RFL to switch the game to summer. This was a decision made by the RFL in order to implement the pyramid structure to support the professional game built from Super league downwards with totally no regard to the amateur game.


Was player participation dropping prior to the switch?

I'm pretty certain that participation levels are dropping at alarming rates in all sports including cricket, football and rugby union. Junior rugby union in Cumbria has hardly any participation at all, so is that the fault of rugby union staying in winter and asking players to train and play in the cold and wet?

Your quote Nev is exactly the point I was trying to make in an earlier email. All that ever happens on any BARLA related thread on here is to try and have a quick dig and blame everything on the summer switch. I appreciate playing in May, June and July doesn't work in some areas, but it does in others.

So, has BARLA ever consulted the clubs on the state of the game at junior /amateur level?

If they have done, when was the last time?

I'm talking about an in-depth report a well, not just a 'do you want to play in winter or summer question?




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