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#421 Marauder

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 09:42 AM

[quote name="Nev V Dawn" post="2748323" timestamp="1374043744"]It's quite simple Fiddler, the players are signed on professional contracts (contracted players) and the rules of the amateur games don't allow them in the amateur game. Cake and eating it not allowed.
 
Ex players (non contracted players) returning to the amateur game - the rules do allow that. Smell the coffee while you're tasting the cake[/quot

Then don, t moan about a shortage of players then, as that is also wanting your cake and eating it Some of these players on pay as you play only with very little chance of getting another club. Do you want them just stood on your touchline or back playing. Or are you happy with being used as cannon fodder when they feel like it by the pros.

Permits went on years ago. Dual reg should be a complete no no, and I believe a lot of teams may refuse to play against them if it goes the way the likes of swinton and warrington have abused it

Wouldn't your idea have championship clubs running round signing even more players on pay as you play contracts who they really can't afford but sign them anyway just in case they blossom at a later date.

 

These will be the players who they will be farming back to the amateur clubs and this wouldn't solve the shortage of players because all that's happening is the players who would have played with a amateur club will still be playing with a amateur club but as a dual reg player, where the problem will be is below the first teams where players will get ###### off.

 

On the same note I've noticed a few winter teams being stacked with NCL players (opposite to what was happening before the switch) I don't think this is healthy either and will eventually have the same affect on the winter side unless the players decide to stop and see the winter season out.


Carlsberg don't do Soldiers, but if they did, they would probably be Brits.



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#422 Marauder

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 09:46 AM

Dual reg to me means a pro team can align with an amateur team a la swinton warrington. This would mean north wales crusaders could dual reg with say leigh miners.then stuart reardon could come back from injury play for miners wjo he has no affinity with.this would obviously would be wrong. However if things weren, t working out for say james dallimore he could go back to st cuthberts but notpats. ( there are other examples)

There is a world of difference between a player who can, t get regular game returning to his amateur club and senior pros playing for a club he has no connection with. Think lee briers adrian morley turning out for swinton.

All I am saying is that pro clubs build large squads of players who cannot all play and some will never kick on, you either want to get these players playing on a regular basis again, or you are happy turning out weaker teams. You can, t have it both ways
All you need to do is make a rule that says a pay as you play player can play for his original amateur club as long his pro team has a game that weekend

What about the competition the amateurs are playing in, from being a competition with integrity it becomes a lottery and the purpose it will be serving will be to provide a game for players from the professional game.


Carlsberg don't do Soldiers, but if they did, they would probably be Brits.



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#423 old fiddle

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Posted 19 July 2013 - 06:33 PM

[quote name="Marauder" post="2748900" timestamp="1374140762"]What about the competition the amateurs are playing in, from being a competition with integrity it becomes a lottery and the purpose it will be serving will be to provide a game for players from the professional game.[/quot

In the seventies and eighties, many barla players, (some tourists) would regularly play pro under an other. Some had no interest ever in signing pro as the had good jobs and did not want to lose amateur status. Ironically so they could go on tours to aus papau etc Similarly many pros obtained permits to play amatuer between clubs. Nobody at the time thought any harm to the game was being done the

#424 old fiddle

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Posted 19 July 2013 - 06:50 PM

Well it must be pleasing for you then Fiddler with the RFL taking control of the amateur game and in the proccess of forcing unwanted rules and legislation to align the whole of the game - Super league down to the twenty four nillers in the NWML - dual reg/loans or whatever you want to call it, will be implemented throughout.
 
And your Utopia, where it's not fair for Mozza or Briers to play for Swinton, but it's quite alright for Dalli to get the odd game for Cuthies, because his club's books are heaving with the amount of players they've signed, will be shattered. The rules at first will probably say only two or three back to their amateur clubs but the line will soon shift to a free for all. As you may often see with the RFL, give them an inch - you know what comes next.
 
You need to wake up and realise that the whole game is centred round supporting Super league downwards, with the implementation of dual reg, it's only a matter of time before the top end of the amateur game becomes an A team division for the pro game. And with you backing this, that's another string that you can add to your bow.


The example of dall maybe a bad one as he is not ncl and is unlikely to be left out of his squad, but I could not think of a better example. if he is, then so what that means he is not good enough for his pro team, of which the standard is only marginally better than ncl

How long do wait before a pay as you player who can, t get a game is allowed to play for his amateur club. Personally I, m not that bothered, but where are you going to get the players from to raise the standards from if you are not going to utilise players in championship and under 19, ss who are frankly having the pee taken out them by pro clubs
You are being overly dramatic and not reading my post properly. The amateur game has the chance to drive this on their terms if they so wish.

Its hobsons choice. Either find a way to use these players or don, t and keep moaning how holidays and weddings affecting fixtures

#425 Marauder

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Posted 19 July 2013 - 06:59 PM

[quote name="Marauder" post="2748900" timestamp="1374140762"]What about the competition the amateurs are playing in, from being a competition with integrity it becomes a lottery and the purpose it will be serving will be to provide a game for players from the professional game.[/quot

In the seventies and eighties, many barla players, (some tourists) would regularly play pro under an other. Some had no interest ever in signing pro as the had good jobs and did not want to lose amateur status. Ironically so they could go on tours to aus papau etc Similarly many pros obtained permits to play amatuer between clubs. Nobody at the time thought any harm to the game was being done the

I played as A N Other and S O Else many times and never had any interest in turning pro.

 

" Why did permits stop"


Carlsberg don't do Soldiers, but if they did, they would probably be Brits.



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#426 old fiddle

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Posted 19 July 2013 - 07:43 PM

[quote name="Marauder" post="2749785" timestamp="1374260385"]I played as A N Other and S O Else many times and never had any interest in turning pro.
 
" Why did permits stop"[/quot
Precisely, bring the old system back and players won, t need to sign pay as you play. Someone will no doubt cite insurance purposes or health and safety, which are just red herrings.
The player pool will automatically increase

#427 Marauder

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Posted 19 July 2013 - 08:11 PM

I don't think you've grasped why 2nd & U18's games are being postponed and why some well established NCL teams are travelling short staffed. (It's not because the professionals have signed every player who can pass a ball)

 

Permits where stopped because the RFL over ruled a disciplinary decision against a professional who had been playing on a permit.  


Carlsberg don't do Soldiers, but if they did, they would probably be Brits.



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#428 old fiddle

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Posted 19 July 2013 - 09:32 PM

I don't think you've grasped why 2nd & U18's games are being postponed and why some well established NCL teams are travelling short staffed. (It's not because the professionals have signed every player who can pass a ball)
 
Permits where stopped because the RFL over ruled a disciplinary decision against a professional who had been playing on a permit.


Pro under 19, s squads must have around 10 players not playing every week, how can that not have an effect on under 18, teams

Championship clubs leave out quite a few also, that will also have an effect. These players are not world beaters, they are than likely to be playing amateur soon anyway. Is bringing that forward really going to cause that much harm.

How can a system in australia that allows free movement between all levels work so successfully.

It seems you are just going to keep putting every obstacle in the way unless eveyone agrees that moving to winter is the utopia that will solve all the games problems.
Well I have news there a hell of a lot of players that would not want to move back. So its catch 22

Ps without trawling through all the posts did answer your own question of why did permits stop

And lastly I am going to have to agree with previous poster that this thread is going nowhere as some just select which parts of a post to answer and ignore the bits they can, t. Therefore itvjust goes round in circles

#429 LordCharles

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Posted 19 July 2013 - 09:45 PM

And lastly I am going to have to agree with previous poster that this thread is going nowhere as some just select which parts of a post to answer and ignore the bits they can, t. Therefore itvjust goes round in circles

 

Indeed they do..............



#430 Marauder

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Posted 19 July 2013 - 09:57 PM

Pro under 19, s squads must have around 10 players not playing every week, how can that not have an effect on under 18, teams

Championship clubs leave out quite a few also, that will also have an effect. These players are not world beaters, they are than likely to be playing amateur soon anyway. Is bringing that forward really going to cause that much harm.

How can a system in australia that allows free movement between all levels work so successfully.

It seems you are just going to keep putting every obstacle in the way unless eveyone agrees that moving to winter is the utopia that will solve all the games problems.
Well I have news there a hell of a lot of players that would not want to move back. So its catch 22

Ps without trawling through all the posts did answer your own question of why did permits stop

And lastly I am going to have to agree with previous poster that this thread is going nowhere as some just select which parts of a post to answer and ignore the bits they can, t. Therefore itvjust goes round in circles

 

Pro under 19, s squads must have around 10 players not playing every week, how can that not have an effect on under 18, teams

Championship clubs leave out quite a few also, that will also have an effect. These players are not world beaters, they are than likely to be playing amateur soon anyway. Is bringing that forward really going to cause that much harm.

How can a system in australia that allows free movement between all levels work so successfully.

It seems you are just going to keep putting every obstacle in the way unless eveyone agrees that moving to winter is the utopia that will solve all the games problems.
Well I have news there a hell of a lot of players that would not want to move back. So its catch 22

Ps without trawling through all the posts did answer your own question of why did permits stop

And lastly I am going to have to agree with previous poster that this thread is going nowhere as some just select which parts of a post to answer and ignore the bits they can, t. Therefore itvjust goes round in circles

Well the biggest problem with the amateur game is the dwindling player pool since the switch to summer - I did answer my own question on  permit players simply because you wouldn't have known the answer, guess what, I was the only club secretary at the CMS Yorkshire meeting to vote to keep permit players when we had a democratic vote.


Carlsberg don't do Soldiers, but if they did, they would probably be Brits.



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#431 old fiddle

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 04:06 PM

Indeed they do..............

Indeed they do..............

Not aware of anything ihave ignored but I, m sure you will point it out
However I commented on australian system, massive surplus of unused pay as you play players
And will these players playing for amateur clubs relly cause that much harm
All ignored in the name of sarcasm

Also I am sure that ryan fieldhouse managed to double up for halifax and leigh east for a short while. I can, t remember if there was a fuss or not. The only difference in that case and the unused players I am talking about was a piece of paper. Yet he was and is a far better player.
Lastly agree with del capo on his posts at 368 and 373, so lets move on and start afresh

#432 LordCharles

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 06:03 PM

Del Capo has been once more conspicuous by his absence.........particularly in relation to the Dual Reg issue/debate.

 

That said the next 3 - 4 weeks will unfold very interestingly for all concerned and I think I would be correct in saying that many of the contributors on here who are of the opinion......."Whats all the fuss about" or "It does'nt matter"........will indeed realise that it does matter.

 

Del Capo's opinion of circumstances will be extremely interesting to read at that point!



#433 TaxiEgg

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 08:24 PM

Question : If given the opportunity and clubs vote against DR where would that leave the NCL ?



#434 sbull

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 08:59 PM

Question : If given the opportunity and clubs vote against DR where would that leave the NCL ?


NCL committee, Egg on there face and wanting a Taxi home I should imagine, lol

#435 TaxiEgg

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 09:04 PM

I,m very competitive and can go up Belle Green Lane after Dark without a police escort .

#436 Marauder

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 09:45 PM

Question : If given the opportunity and clubs vote against DR where would that leave the NCL ?

cheque book of long time promise will come out and go back in again very quickly.


Carlsberg don't do Soldiers, but if they did, they would probably be Brits.



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#437 Nev V Dawn

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 06:45 AM

Question : If given the opportunity and clubs vote against DR where would that leave the NCL ?

 

In my opinion it's highly unlikely that a simple vote for or against will ever happen. But if it did it would certainly leave Messrs Hunt and Moran very crimson faced and definitely on the naughty step at the RFL Controlommunity Board.

 

In reality however, with the dual registration deal just waiting for the ink to dry - RFL Community Board Minutes 17th April 2013;

 

9.3 Community Dual Registration. Further to the acceptance of the paper circulated by Chris Thair, the board accepted the recommendations contained therein and the approval of a formal consultation taking place. The results of this consultation would be issued to the Community Board Regulatory Group, with final policy to be agreed by the Board in Octobers

 

The saving grace for the two gentlemen is that RFL will more than likely write up a recommendation dressed up as a benefits package - a la March 2011 - for their two marionettes to force through.



#438 samsung

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 08:39 AM

Question : If given the opportunity and clubs vote against DR where would that leave the NCL ?


I don't understand why you ask "where would that leave the NCL?". It would clearly leave the NCL without dual registration. It will go to the vote: if the clubs don't want it, it won't happen.

#439 Nev V Dawn

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Posted 25 July 2013 - 06:27 AM

I don't understand why you ask "where would that leave the NCL?". It would clearly leave the NCL without dual registration. It will go to the vote: if the clubs don't want it, it won't happen.

 

The NCL won't return to a traditional season because as you so rightly know it has now been grabbed as the next level to support the ailing professional game. The teams however may do.



#440 Marauder

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Posted 25 July 2013 - 06:48 AM

The NCL won't return to a traditional season because as you so rightly know it has now been grabbed as the next level to support the ailing professional game. The teams however may do.

But haven't the next level up also grabbed the control of the decision making mechanism of the amateur game with the very INDEPENDENT Community Board  of puppets who will not allow a amateur league in direct competition to set up a structure in the traditional season (How strange that it allowed the opposite to happen when we where all happy playing with 17 men on a team sheet in sub-zero and wet conditions with one man and his dog watching)


Carlsberg don't do Soldiers, but if they did, they would probably be Brits.



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