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Harry Sunderland


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#221 Johnoco

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 10:01 AM

So the work of the author of the official history of the game
A former official historian of the game
The current official historian of the game
And a primary source is discredited then?

I read what they wrote and gave it credence, why wouldn't I?

It isn't me that's calling Sunderland a racist but them. My view on the validity of naming the trophy after him is based on what they say(I read gates obituary if Francis at the time)
Both gate and collins have contributed abd contribute historical articles and obits to LPL titles

Let's let sleeping dogs lie eh?
Rugby league has more in common with union than I thought

It is the original propagaters of the story in their published work who have to answer to sunderlands descendents if they are wrong and to the people who have given credence to their work


Don't be so bloody ridiculous. You are willing to say RL is morally corrupt now because everyone on here doesn't agree with your one man witchhunt? Do me a favour.

Of course you are calling Sunderland racist, so don't hide behind others. You don't even seem willing to entertain the thought that this may have been simply a misunderstanding or anything like that, you have from the get go called for his name to be removed. All most people are asking for is a little more evidence and perhaps a black player from that era to say 'Actually, he called me a black so &so and said we were useless', before jumping in and condemning a mans name for the sake of modern sensitivity. What is so unusual in wanting a bit more of a back up? You have no more idea than anyone else about the actual truth of the affair, you have simply jumped on the white mans burden routine and assumed that Sunderland is guilty.

Which he may be, he could have been the biggest racist ever to draw breath for all I know, but forgive me for not accepting that just because some bloke on an internet message board tells me that it is so.

No I don't care if you're if you're into different bands

No cause for so much hatred, I'm just a different man

Pull off that cover, I will too, and learn to understand

With music deep inside we'll make world unity our plan

 

7 Seconds -Walk Together, Rock Together


#222 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 10:02 AM

But they are not the ones who are saying that Sunderland's name should be withdrawn from the Grand Final man of the match trophy.

one of them said he wouldn't name the trophy after him

they have supplied the information(sic)


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#223 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 10:05 AM

Don't be so bloody ridiculous. You are willing to say RL is morally corrupt now because everyone on here doesn't agree with your one man witchhunt? Do me a favour.

Of course you are calling Sunderland racist, so don't hide behind others. You don't even seem willing to entertain the thought that this may have been simply a misunderstanding or anything like that, you have from the get go called for his name to be removed. All most people are asking for is a little more evidence and perhaps a black player from that era to say 'Actually, he called me a black so &so and said we were useless', before jumping in and condemning a mans name for the sake of modern sensitivity. What is so unusual in wanting a bit more of a back up? You have no more idea than anyone else about the actual truth of the affair, you have simply jumped on the white mans burden routine and assumed that Sunderland is guilty.

Which he may be, he could have been the biggest racist ever to draw breath for all I know, but forgive me for not accepting that just because some bloke on an internet message board tells me that it is so.

I'm noit saying that at all

although I'm sure it has and does exist.

 

I'm hiding behind nobody. These are the people who supply the on the face of it historical information: it's their ideas not mine, I just give/gave them credence why wouldn't I consiodering their status

 

I don't expect you to accept anything-you have a mind of your own-there's nothing for me to forgive


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#224 dkw

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 10:05 AM

The unfairness has been committed by the authors if the published work if indeed what they have written is true two of them have contributed to your titles and are highly respected historians

You are the one using the published work to back up your argument, so is it not now down to you to further your cause with proper evidence etc?

#225 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 10:07 AM

You are the one using the published work to back up your argument, so is it not now down to you to further your cause with proper evidence etc?

no

the published work is the source of that 'argument'

 

If I hadn't read it,and/or it hadn't been published by those people, whom I hold in high regard, then the matter wouldn't have arisen


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#226 Johnoco

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 10:08 AM

I'm noit saying that at all
although I'm sure it has and does exist.
 
I'm hiding behind nobody. These are the people who supply the on the face of it historical information: it's their ideas not mine, I just give/gave them credence why wouldn't I consiodering their status
 
I don't expect you to accept anything-you have a mind of your own-there's nothing for me to forgive


You are trying to imply that they are the ones saying he is racist and you are merely a bystander. When in fact you are actively arguing that he was a racist and the trophy should be renamed.

Is there any more evidence, either from black players in the UK or perhaps indigenous Australians involved in the game?

No I don't care if you're if you're into different bands

No cause for so much hatred, I'm just a different man

Pull off that cover, I will too, and learn to understand

With music deep inside we'll make world unity our plan

 

7 Seconds -Walk Together, Rock Together


#227 dkw

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 10:36 AM

no
the published work is the source of that 'argument'

If I hadn't read it,and/or it hadn't been published by those people, whom I hold in high regard, then the matter wouldn't have arisen

so you truly believe that you shouldnt be expected to back up your use of those articles to help back up your argument? Are you a politician perchance.

#228 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 10:42 AM

You are trying to imply that they are the ones saying he is racist and you are merely a bystander. When in fact you are actively arguing that he was a racist and the trophy should be renamed.

Is there any more evidence, either from black players in the UK or perhaps indigenous Australians involved in the game?

 

there's nothing to imply: their thoughts are a matter of record.

I'm not a bystander, otherwise I wouldn't have started the thread. My argument is that they have said he was or there is at least a prima facie case that he was. I read and study books on the history of the sport-this is what led to me raising the subject. I know let's brush it under the carpet

 

your last sentence has already been discussed see replies to yours(would you believe) and Derwent's posts


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#229 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 10:44 AM

so you truly believe that you shouldnt be expected to back up your use of those articles to help back up your argument? Are you a politician perchance.

the highly esteemed authors of the articles are the ones who should be doing the backing up, although Moorhouse is dead, as of course is Francis. I read what thery wrote and reacted to it.

 

are you suggesting that for some reason(one which I can't think of to be frank) I had out of nowhere decided that Sunderland was racist and then scoured the rugbyh league history books for articles that showed he was? hell's ####


Edited by l'angelo mysterioso, 02 July 2013 - 10:46 AM.

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#230 Johnoco

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 10:46 AM

So it has been discussed but no more evidence has yet emerged?

Brush what under the carpet? your one man crusade? Jeez, just provide a bit more evidence or further instances and we might be getting somewhere. If not all you are doing is waging a war on his memory using not that cast iron evidence.

No I don't care if you're if you're into different bands

No cause for so much hatred, I'm just a different man

Pull off that cover, I will too, and learn to understand

With music deep inside we'll make world unity our plan

 

7 Seconds -Walk Together, Rock Together


#231 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 10:48 AM

So it has been discussed but no more evidence has yet emerged?

Brush what under the carpet? your one man crusade? Jeez, just provide a bit more evidence or further instances and we might be getting somewhere. If not all you are doing is waging a war on his memory using not that cast iron evidence.

it's a thread on a forum not a crusade

 

brush comments from highly respected historians and authors under the carpet.


Edited by l'angelo mysterioso, 02 July 2013 - 10:49 AM.

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#232 Johnoco

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 10:52 AM

it's a thread on a forum not a crusade
 
brush comments from highly respected historians and authors under the carpet.


So what if they are highly respected? Even highly respected scholars and authors don't always get it right.

No I don't care if you're if you're into different bands

No cause for so much hatred, I'm just a different man

Pull off that cover, I will too, and learn to understand

With music deep inside we'll make world unity our plan

 

7 Seconds -Walk Together, Rock Together


#233 John Drake

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 11:00 AM

The opening post of this thread states:

"I think it is wrong that there is a trophy named in his honour."

A discussion has followed. People have argued and disagreed. So far, nothing has been deleted from this thread. However, I feel it has now reached a pantomimesque point of no return.

"Oh yes he was!"

"Oh no he wasn't!"

This is not a matter of brushing anything under the carpet, in my view. The issue has been raised and discussed openly. However, no amount of further discussion on this forum can resolve the point put forward in the opening post.

Only the RFL has the power to decide who its various trophies ought to be named after and why. Anyone who still feels strongly either way on this matter, I would suggest you put your points and any supporting evidence directly to the RFL now.


John Drake
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