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Brian Sewell The man is a god


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#41 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 08:16 PM

I think "the working classes are quite happy to roll about in sewage" is more than overstating the case. It's just offensive and not remotely true. The working classes pretty much had to accept their lot pre-WW2 because there was sod all that they could do about it. I don't think anyone enjoyed filth and squalor.

you are of course right


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#42 Northern Sol

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 08:17 PM

Both had a significant effect on British society ... for me, one good and one bad.

 

Overall, the working class wouldn't have voted Thatcher in if Labour had been a credible alternative. Traditional working class areas remained Labour strongholds.

 

In my opinion: -

 - It's having middle class Labour leaders like Foot (and I think Miliband) who can't marshall the working class vote that has resulted in the Tories have a clear run at elections. 

 

I'd say it had more to do with the collapse of heavy industry and trade unions and the increasing tendency of people to think of themselves as "classless" or "middle class" myself.



#43 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 08:18 PM

Both had a significant effect on British society ... for me, one good and one bad.

 

Overall, the working class wouldn't have voted Thatcher in if Labour had been a credible alternative. Traditional working class areas remained Labour strongholds.

 

In my opinion: -

 - It's having middle class Labour leaders like Foot (and I think Miliband) who can't marshall the working class vote that has resulted in the Tories have a clear run at elections. 

 -  Kinnock was working class and cleaned up the party  but was not up to leading the country.

 - Smith was middle class but was not up to leading the country or the party.

 - Blair was middle class but could just as easily have been a Tory leader. Still, he got us in. Ego got the better of him. I voted for him the first time, not afterwards.

 - Brown meant well but was not a good communicator with either the middle class or the working class. He commanded respect but not much loyalty. I hope he will come back a wiser man without the siege mentality and with a more inclusive style of leadership.

Attlee was middle/upper class

Wilson was middle class

Gaitskell was middle class

Kinnock working class? I don't think so, although he might have come from a working class background.

 

Benn is upper class

 

middle class people are working people as well ask your nearest ward sister, inner city school teacher or emergency department doctor for instance


Edited by l'angelo mysterioso, 27 June 2013 - 08:20 PM.

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#44 Wolford6

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 08:27 PM

 

1. Kinnock working class? I don't think so, although he might have come from a working class background.

 

 

 

2. middle class people are working people as well ask your nearest ward sister, inner city school teacher or emergency department doctor for instance

 

1. Kinnock's dad was a miner

 

2. The Tories have always worked on the principle of persuading working class people that they are, in fact, middle class and "eligible" to vote Conservative.

 There will always be an active within-working-class snobbery, just as there is an active  within-middle-class snobbery What house you have, what car you drive, what educational achievements you hold, how much you earn ... all are elements for comparison and judgement. That's why the Daily Mail sells so many copies.


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#45 longboard

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 08:42 PM

:hi:  Aah. One of l'a m's teasing threads....................... :you:  



#46 Griff9of13

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 08:52 PM

Sewell has never displayed anything but contempt for the working classes and the North. He has been quoted in the past as saying all great works of art ought to be housed in London where the people will appreciate them (impling us northern folk are too dense to appreciate them).

 

He also speaks with an accent so pretentious and put on it's almost impenetrable. I can imagine his disdain for people who speak with an equally difficult to comprehend speaking voice if they happened to speak that way with a regional accent and not his, over the top, false posh. After all the whole purpose of 'received pronunciation' is to make yourself better understood to the widest possible audience, something Sewell fails to do totally.  


"it is a well known fact that those people who most want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it."

#47 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 08:52 PM

1. Kinnock's dad was a miner

 

2. The Tories have always worked on the principle of persuading working class people that they are, in fact, middle class and "eligible" to vote Conservative.

 There will always be an active within-working-class snobbery, just as there is an active  within-middle-class snobbery What house you have, what car you drive, what educational achievements you hold, how much you earn ... all are elements for comparison and judgement. That's why the Daily Mail sells so many copies.

Kinnock wasn't


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#48 Johnoco

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 09:30 PM

so what

working in a mill or down a pit doesn't make you a better person it doesn't make you a worse person either
same with middle class people

It means that you had a hard bloody life and were generally too f*cked to ##### about looking at paintings like the likes of Sewell did.
That's assuming you didn't starve to death or get put in the army as cannon fodder.

No I don't care if you're if you're into different bands

No cause for so much hatred, I'm just a different man

Pull off that cover, I will too, and learn to understand

With music deep inside we'll make world unity our plan

 

7 Seconds -Walk Together, Rock Together


#49 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 10:14 PM

It means that you had a hard bloody life and were generally too f*cked to ##### about looking at paintings like the likes of Sewell did.
That's assuming you didn't starve to death or get put in the army as cannon fodder.

correct

in world war 1 and world war 2 , korea, Malaya, northern Ireland, Iraq, Afghanistan,and probably in previous wars officers died alongside their men

read Robert graves, Wilfred owen, seigfried Sassoon, a message from the falkalnds, the dambusters  ec etc etc

 

the beef isn't with the middle class but the upper class the people with the real money and power

middle class people are working people


Edited by l'angelo mysterioso, 27 June 2013 - 10:27 PM.

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#50 hindle xiii

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 06:15 AM

I watched a programme about women in India on BBC3 last night. That certainly didn't seem dumbed down.


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#51 longboard

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 08:44 AM

It means that you had a hard bloody life and were generally too f*cked to ##### about looking at paintings like the likes of Sewell did.
That's assuming you didn't starve to death or get put in the army as cannon fodder.

 

Well, the Pitmen Painters managed to look at paintings, and they painted them as well!

 

http://www.ashington...co.uk/home.html

 

I don't think they ponced about though.  ;)



#52 Futtocks

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 08:47 AM


Sewell has never displayed anything but contempt for the working classes and the North. He has been quoted in the past as saying all great works of art ought to be housed in London where the people will appreciate them (impling us northern folk are too dense to appreciate them).

Brian Sewell visits Newcastle.

 

"Sewell thinks that the North East has had a raw deal on the arts front, with a lack of support from cultural organisations in the past.

Sewell claims that he's been misreported, and he's keen to set the record straight.

Although he admits that London has more sophisticated audiences, he is in favour of "moving things out of London".

He believes in spreading culture around the country, not concentrating it all in the South East

Perhaps he's just playing devil's advocate? Sewell admits that he enjoys a lively cultural sparring match because it's good to upset people if it makes them think."


A mind is like a parachute. It doesn’t work if it isn’t open. Frank Zappa (1940 - 1993)


#53 Johnoco

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 08:55 AM

Well, the Pitmen Painters managed to look at paintings, and they painted them as well!

 

http://www.ashington...co.uk/home.html

 

I don't think they ponced about though.  ;)

I know there were exceptions but I am talking about the masses in general. Most people up until fairly recently had 2 choices; work or starve. Or go on the rob, which I suppose is three but anyway.... it was a very hard life and there was very little time left for culture or popping along to the opera. 


No I don't care if you're if you're into different bands

No cause for so much hatred, I'm just a different man

Pull off that cover, I will too, and learn to understand

With music deep inside we'll make world unity our plan

 

7 Seconds -Walk Together, Rock Together


#54 Shadow

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 09:05 AM

Although he admits that London has more sophisticated audiences, he is in favour of "moving things out of London".

 

I'm a fully fledged southern softy and I think that's patronising ######.

The Welsh National Opera, Opera North and Edinburgh Festival spring immediately to mind.

 

You unsophisticated northern oiks  :tongue:


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#55 Griff9of13

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 09:08 AM

I'm a fully fledged southern softy and I think that's patronising ######.

The Welsh National Opera, Opera North and Edinburgh Festival spring immediately to mind.

 

You unsophisticated northern oiks  :tongue:

 

Plus the likes of The Hull Truck Theatre Company, Northern Broadside Theatre Company etc.

 

Yes, we live in a cultural desert. :P


"it is a well known fact that those people who most want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it."

#56 longboard

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 09:14 AM

I know there were exceptions but I am talking about the masses in general. Most people up until fairly recently had 2 choices; work or starve. Or go on the rob, which I suppose is three but anyway.... it was a very hard life and there was very little time left for culture or popping along to the opera. 

 

I don't know about that. Leisure has been around for a long time for large swathes of the population. Look at the growth of sports teams and clubs, cycling clubs, walking groups, choirs, music groups, brass bands, Mechanics Institutes etc in the latter part of the 19th century. Also, think the number of pubs, working men's clubs etc. Obviously a lot of these activities were undertaken mainly by men. The people who took part in these pursuits, just like those who went to rugby and soccer matches made a choice about how they wanted to spend their free time, just like the people who liked to spend it having a few jars. 



#57 ckn

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 09:41 AM

Both had a significant effect on British society ... for me, one good and one bad.

 

Overall, the working class wouldn't have voted Thatcher in if Labour had been a credible alternative. Traditional working class areas remained Labour strongholds.

 

In my opinion: -

 - It's having middle class Labour leaders like Foot (and I think Miliband) who can't marshall the working class vote that has resulted in the Tories have a clear run at elections. 

 -  Kinnock was working class and cleaned up the party  but was not up to leading the country.

 - Smith was middle class but was not up to leading the country or the party.

 - Blair was middle class but could just as easily have been a Tory leader. Still, he got us in. Ego got the better of him. I voted for him the first time, not afterwards.

 - Brown meant well but was not a good communicator with either the middle class or the working class. He commanded respect but not much loyalty. I hope he will come back a wiser man without the siege mentality and with a more inclusive style of leadership.

On Smith, he was everything I wanted in a Labour leader.  He was genuinely respected on both sides of the Parliamentary divide, had some solid Labour principles building on the good work of Kinnock and would have most likely been a fantastic Prime Minister.  A sad loss to the party and probably the country.

 

On Brown, he has some fantastic loyalty from his voters in his constituency.  It's all earned because of the work he puts into his constituent's needs.  I remember an article written about him, must have been about 2007, showing that he held twice as many constituency surgeries as any other Cabinet minister and he kept that up as Prime Minister.  An MP showing loyalty to his constituency is a rarity these days, most just use it as a stepping stone to get what they want.  In Parliament though, Brown was a disaster as Prime Minister mainly because, as you say, he was an abysmal communicator who just didn't have the talent to be the figurehead as well as keeping the egos of the Parliamentary Party happy, if the majority of Labour MPs had supported him from when he took on the job as PM rather than spend most of their time briefing against him then who knows what would have happened in 2010.

 

On Blair, his 1997-2001 Parliament was almost picture perfect in terms of what a Labour supporter could want from a modern government, how much of that was driven by Brown, Prescott and the like is a different story though.  From 2001 onwards, it was his ego that ran the thing.


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#58 Johnoco

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 09:59 AM

I don't know about that. Leisure has been around for a long time for large swathes of the population. Look at the growth of sports teams and clubs, cycling clubs, walking groups, choirs, music groups, brass bands, Mechanics Institutes etc in the latter part of the 19th century. Also, think the number of pubs, working men's clubs etc. Obviously a lot of these activities were undertaken mainly by men. The people who took part in these pursuits, just like those who went to rugby and soccer matches made a choice about how they wanted to spend their free time, just like the people who liked to spend it having a few jars. 

It wasn't that long ago that the working week was still 5 1/2 days a week. Would you want to spend that long on a loom or stood at a lathe or whatever and then go out and spend what little time you had left listening to some windbag prattling on about art or something or go for a few jars or to the football/RL? It wasn't just a case of clocking off, most of the jobs were physically exhausting and a lot of downtime was actually spent just trying to recover.

 

I love art and stuff, I am dead cultural. But if my only freetime was about 1 evening a week I would probably spend it getting r-soled on cheap gin or something.


No I don't care if you're if you're into different bands

No cause for so much hatred, I'm just a different man

Pull off that cover, I will too, and learn to understand

With music deep inside we'll make world unity our plan

 

7 Seconds -Walk Together, Rock Together


#59 JohnM

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 10:18 AM

I started work in 1962, 51 years ago...and still at it!  I was a student apprentice. i.e I was employed by a mainframe computer company who paid me £2 6s 3d a week ( rising to £11 a week after 6 years)  to go to college full time for six years. College hours were 9 am till 6 pm five days a week plus homework. In the vacations we were required to work at the company premises. We had to work a 40 hour week. My mates who unlike me had proper jobs generally worked 40 hours a week. One or two  I know did things like double day shifts at the mill so they could escape from Swinton. I did not know many, self -employed apart, who worked 5 1/2 days a week.

 

LS Lowry was just coming to prominence thanks to the efforts of Harold Riley, Violet Carson was playing the piano at Swinton and Pendlebury Library on  't top road, I was giving it hell in Swindon and Pendlebury Brass Band, appearing on stage in a local production of Lilac Time, watching the Lions whenever I could afford and striving fruitlessly to overcome an immense lack of talent playing low level amateur rugby mainly by under-age drinking.

 

Brian Sewell, eat your heart out!



#60 getdownmonkeyman

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 11:21 AM

I started work in 1962, 51 years ago...and still at it!  I was a student apprentice. i.e I was employed by a mainframe computer company who paid me £2 6s 3d a week ( rising to £11 a week after 6 years)  to go to college full time for six years. College hours were 9 am till 6 pm five days a week plus homework. In the vacations we were required to work at the company premises. We had to work a 40 hour week. My mates who unlike me had proper jobs generally worked 40 hours a week. One or two  I know did things like double day shifts at the mill so they could escape from Swinton. I did not know many, self -employed apart, who worked 5 1/2 days a week.

 

LS Lowry was just coming to prominence thanks to the efforts of Harold Riley, Violet Carson was playing the piano at Swinton and Pendlebury Library on  't top road, I was giving it hell in Swindon and Pendlebury Brass Band, appearing on stage in a local production of Lilac Time, watching the Lions whenever I could afford and striving fruitlessly to overcome an immense lack of talent playing low level amateur rugby mainly by under-age drinking.

 

Brian Sewell, eat your heart out!

 

 

I was about to mention Lowry. A revered Artist from the north, with a working class background. A paradoxical situation Sewell could barely comprehend. 






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