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Arming the "rebels" in syria

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#41 Northern Sol

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 03:19 PM

But the US is intervening in syria on the side of the "rebels" who want to overthrow the Assad regime not the other way round whilst backing the bahraini government and the Saudi forces that came to the rescue of the Bahraini royal family against the democracy protesters in bahrain. A clear example of which countries are and are not US client states if ever there was one. Also have you anything to say on the Arab oil producing countries who could threaten to cut off oil production and supply to the "west" to help the Palestinians?

It's a clear example of realpolitik.

 

Assad is a brutal dictator and his people are trying to overthrow him. The US is generally supportive of democracy movements and is considering supporting them.

 

In Bahrain, there is a dictator (the King) who was not thought to be brutal until recently. There were protests by the Shi'ite majority in favour of more equality and perhaps some democratic reforms. The US did little to support them because Bahaini oil is quite important. I don't know how that makes them a client state. If anything they are dictating terms to the West.

 

The oil producing countries will not cut off oil to the West over Israel because they do not care about Palestinians. The vast oil wealth allows them to buy off their populace and continue their medieval style of government. They aren't going to risk that over people that they do not like very much.



#42 Northern Sol

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 03:24 PM

Well your mask has finally slipped, parroting neocon and Zionist propaganda in which you'd hear on fox news "Palestinians are considered parasites in most Arab states." where they not considered "parasites" in 48',67' and 73' then? The fact that you can claim that the people from the land of the 3rd holiest site in Islam, the al qasa mosque in occupied Jerusalem(al quds) are "parasites" shows that you are either ignorant or dishonest.

I'm finding it very difficult to type at the moment but yes, they are treated as parasites, which is why they don't always have the citizenship of the territory in which they were born and lived their whole lives. They are even forced to live in refugee camps 65 years after the event. Certain professions are closed to them.

 

Meanwhile Saudi and the gulf states import labour from India and Pakistan. You don't see them giving a lot of work visas to Palestinians. Oddly enough Assad's Syria and Saddam's Iraq treated them better than anyone else but this is still relative.

 

Now if you want to call that Zionist propaganda then you are making yourself look very silly because these things can be googled (and no I don't need to use Fox to back this up).



#43 Northern Sol

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 03:27 PM

First off they aren't paying cash, we the US and UK are giving them money and weapons gratis, secondly a large portion of these "rebels" are al Qaeda and al Qaeda affiliated groups, you know 9/11, the twin towers and all that and the throat slitters of Christians, Shias etc.

That's Al Qaeda famous for trying overthrow "client states", you know.

 

We aren't giving weapons to Al Nusra, we are giving them to the FSA.

 

I don't think it is wise but why do you insist on repeating propaganda.



#44 Li0nhead

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 03:37 PM

Of course Israel blows up many Palestinian babies in gaza, the "peace" deal allowed Israel to do exactly that without retaliation from Egypt. Also Egyptians survive on something like $1 or $2 a day while their government was selling gas to a country that wiped Palestine off the map and continues to occupy the west bank and east Jerusalem at a knocked down price.

 

So Egypt should simply attack Israel at all times and at every opportunity?

 

So how would that save Palestinian babies?.

 

Or they could live in the real world like they do and deal with the reality that Israel is a neighbour and they will have to live together even if they are not comfortable with that. 



#45 walter sobchak

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 03:39 PM

It's a clear example of realpolitik.
 
Assad is a brutal dictator and his people are trying to overthrow him. The US is generally supportive of democracy movements and is considering supporting them.
 
In Bahrain, there is a dictator (the King) who was not thought to be brutal until recently. There were protests by the Shi'ite majority in favour of more equality and perhaps some democratic reforms. The US did little to support them because Bahaini oil is quite important. I don't know how that makes them a client state. If anything they are dictating terms to the West.
 
The oil producing countries will not cut off oil to the West over Israel because they do not care about Palestinians. The vast oil wealth allows them to buy off their populace and continue their medieval style of government. They aren't going to risk that over people that they do not like very much.

How many people have to die in Bahrain before the al Khalifa royal family become a brutal dictator rather than a plain old dictator? Thousands of Bahrainis have either been killed, wounded, tortured and jailed for protesting what you and I enjoy, democracy. Also bloggers, journalists and human rights activists in Bahrain have been jailed and tortured for speaking out against the bahraini dictatorship as have doctors who treat the wounded protesters. Not only is Bahraini oil important to the US but so is the annual tens of billions of $$$$$ worth of US arms that the al Khalifa family buy to stay in power, the oil money that is invested in US banks and on wall street and then there's the US naval base that houses the US fifth fleet that can threaten Iran.

#46 Li0nhead

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 03:40 PM

They did in 48', 67' and 73'. I can assure you that every man, woman and child supports the Palestinian struggle and resistance.

 

Source for that stat please.

 

I would suggest a large number of men women and children in this country would support the death sentence for child killers. But we don't have it as we are civilised and miscarriages of justice happens so reality means we don't have something that lots of people support. 



#47 Northern Sol

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 03:47 PM

How many people have to die in Bahrain before the al Khalifa royal family become a brutal dictator rather than a plain old dictator? Thousands of Bahrainis have either been killed, wounded, tortured and jailed for protesting what you and I enjoy, democracy. Also bloggers, journalists and human rights activists in Bahrain have been jailed and tortured for speaking out against the bahraini dictatorship as have doctors who treat the wounded protesters. Not only is Bahraini oil important to the US but so is the annual tens of billions of $$$$$ worth of US arms that the al Khalifa family buy to stay in power, the oil money that is invested in US banks and on wall street and then there's the US naval base that houses the US fifth fleet that can threaten Iran.

I do not agree with the policy towards Bahrain but there is no need to dress up by talking about "client states". The Bahraini repression had nothing to do with the US. The US condones this situation but did not create it.

 

It suited the Bahraini (and Saudi) government to portray protesters as Shi'ite extremists in the pay of Iran, which they were not. But you do the same of the Syrian rebels - Al Nusra exist but most Syrian rebels are just the same as Bahraini rebels. All the things you listed as being true of Bahrain are also true of Syria.



#48 walter sobchak

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 03:50 PM

So Egypt should simply attack Israel at all times and at every opportunity?
 
So how would that save Palestinian babies?.
 
Or they could live in the real world like they do and deal with the reality that Israel is a neighbour and they will have to live together even if they are not comfortable with that.

No Egypt shouldn't attack Israel at every opportunity but if they supported the Palestinians then Israel would think twice before attacking the Palestinians at every opportunity they get. It's the fact that Israel goes unchallenged that they can get away with occupying Palestinian territory and annexing yet ever more land in east Jerusalem and the west bank without pressure or resistance from Egypt and other arab countries. Not to mention being armed to the teeth by the US and having the US wield their veto at the UN security council.

#49 Northern Sol

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 03:52 PM

Perhaps if the Palestinians (and Hezbollah) would stop providing "the opportunity" then it would be better all round.



#50 Li0nhead

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 03:58 PM

No Egypt shouldn't attack Israel at every opportunity but if they supported the Palestinians then Israel would think twice before attacking the Palestinians at every opportunity they get. It's the fact that Israel goes unchallenged that they can get away with occupying Palestinian territory and annexing yet ever more land in east Jerusalem and the west bank without pressure or resistance from Egypt and other arab countries. Not to mention being armed to the teeth by the US and having the US wield their veto at the UN security council.

 

Attacking the Palestinians at every opportunity? 

Wow someone should report this. 

Suppose you have seen an online copy of Israel's plan 'operation: kill em all'? 



#51 Northern Sol

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 04:01 PM

Attacking the Palestinians at every opportunity? 

Wow someone should report this. 

Suppose you have seen an online copy of Israel's plan 'operation: kill em all'? 

If that's their plan then they are doing a poor job of it. The Syrian war is said to have killed about 100,000 and has been going on for about 3 years.

 

The Israeli-Palestinian conflict has been going on for more than 65 years and hasn't got anywhere near that.

 

And yet you would think that it was the worst thing ever to happen but the fuss that some make. Put it in some context.



#52 walter sobchak

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 04:06 PM

I do not agree with the policy towards Bahrain but there is no need to dress up by talking about "client states". The Bahraini repression had nothing to do with the US. The US condones this situation but did not create it.
 
It suited the Bahraini (and Saudi) government to portray protesters as Shi'ite extremists in the pay of Iran, which they were not. But you do the same of the Syrian rebels - Al Nusra exist but most Syrian rebels are just the same as Bahraini rebels. All the things you listed as being true of Bahrain are also true of Syria.

The protest movement in Bahrain is peaceful, they are not armed just like the movements in Egypt and Tunisia where peaceful. Although the protests in Libya and Syria started off peacefully they quickly became armed by the US, UK, other NATO countries and gulf Arab states. that's when they lost me, as they would just be replacing one anti-US dictator for a pro-US dictator. Also the US may condone the repression in bahrain(I've seen little of this) they aren't exactly calling for the al Khalifa family to step down like they did with Gaddafi and Assad, and calling for democracy and free and fair elections are they?

#53 walter sobchak

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 04:11 PM

Attacking the Palestinians at every opportunity? 
Wow someone should report this. 
Suppose you have seen an online copy of Israel's plan 'operation: kill em all'?

What would you call Palestine being wiped off the map? What would you call the occupation and annexing of land in the west bank and east Jerusalem? What would you call the siege on gaza?

#54 walter sobchak

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 04:18 PM

Perhaps if the Palestinians (and Hezbollah) would stop providing "the opportunity" then it would be better all round.


That's right blame the victims, its Israel that wiped palestine off the map in 1948 and it's Israel that invaded Lebanon in 1978 and 1982 and occupied southern Lebanon until 2000.

#55 Northern Sol

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 04:27 PM

The protest movement in Bahrain is peaceful, they are not armed just like the movements in Egypt and Tunisia where peaceful. Although the protests in Libya and Syria started off peacefully they quickly became armed by the US, UK, other NATO countries and gulf Arab states. that's when they lost me, as they would just be replacing one anti-US dictator for a pro-US dictator. Also the US may condone the repression in bahrain(I've seen little of this) they aren't exactly calling for the al Khalifa family to step down like they did with Gaddafi and Assad, and calling for democracy and free and fair elections are they?

So you are okay with dictators so long as they are anti-Western?

 

The protests in Libya and Syria were peaceful until the dictators used force. "Quickly armed by NATO" - well it's been three years...



#56 Northern Sol

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 04:29 PM

That's right blame the victims, its Israel that wiped palestine off the map in 1948 and it's Israel that invaded Lebanon in 1978 and 1982 and occupied southern Lebanon until 2000.

Yes, I can see how the wars of '48, '67 and '78 were started by Israel....

 

You do tend to lose territory if you start wars and then lose them.

 

Generally the reason why Arab states have tended to be reluctant to get involved ever since.



#57 walter sobchak

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 04:44 PM

So you are okay with dictators so long as they are anti-Western?
 
The protests in Libya and Syria were peaceful until the dictators used force. "Quickly armed by NATO" - well it's been three years...

No I'm not ok with any dictator, be they pro or anti-US. but what I'm not ok with and what raises my eyebrows is when the US and UK pick and choose what civil war/protest movement to get involved in and intervene militarily and which ones not to.

#58 Northern Sol

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 05:22 PM

No I'm not ok with any dictator, be they pro or anti-US. but what I'm not ok with and what raises my eyebrows is when the US and UK pick and choose what civil war/protest movement to get involved in and intervene militarily and which ones not to.

Well duh. If they didn't they'd either never intervene or intervene all the time. Even the US doesn't have the resources to be able to intervene in every conflict. Therefore you want them to never intervene.

 

You don't give a reason why the protesters were okay until the US got involved (in so far as they are involved). What changed (aside from US involvement)? 



#59 archibald

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 05:29 PM

First off they aren't paying cash, we the US and UK are giving them money and weapons gratis, secondly a large portion of these "rebels" are al Qaeda and al Qaeda affiliated groups, you know 9/11, the twin towers and all that and the throat slitters of Christians, Shias etc.

Aaaah, it's a cunning ruse, they're currently pretending to be massacred so we'll give them lots of guns, when we do the joke will be on us. Hopefully, when they ask for a couple of 737's and directions to Blackpool Tower we'll figure it out.



#60 walter sobchak

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 05:49 PM

Aaaah, it's a cunning ruse, they're currently pretending to be massacred so we'll give them lots of guns, when we do the joke will be on us. Hopefully, when they ask for a couple of 737's and directions to Blackpool Tower we'll figure it out.


Nobody's pretending to be massacred in syria, People are being massacred on both sides by both sides, nobody has clean hands in this civil war. They won't need to fly 737's into Blackpool tower to harm us, if they are succeful in toppling Assad like Gaddafi they will get their hands on all kinds of weaponry that can do considerable damage to us both at home and abroad, just like the attack on the US embassy in Benghazi. Not to mention Syria's stockpile of chemical weapons.