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Arming the "rebels" in syria

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#81 Northern Sol

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 09:25 AM

Is Walter 'George Galloway'?  ;)

Many a true word spoken in jest.



#82 walter sobchak

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 10:05 AM

Is Walter 'George Galloway'?  ;)


I wish! I'm a huge admirer of GG, say what you will about George Galloway he was 100% right on the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and the way he dealt with the lying criminal US senate was a joy to behold. I think i enjoy watching the likes of Galloway, tony Benn, Norman finklestein and Chomsky destroy neocons and zionists more than a good game of rugby league.

#83 Northern Sol

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 10:22 AM

I wish! I'm a huge admirer of GG, say what you will about George Galloway he was 100% right on the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and the way he dealt with the lying criminal US senate was a joy to behold. I think i enjoy watching the likes of Galloway, tony Benn, Norman finklestein and Chomsky destroy neocons and zionists more than a good game of rugby league.

That's the George Galloway who moonlights as a presenter on Press TV, which is Iranian state television.

 

That's the Iran who is running client states in Iraq, Syria and Lebanon.

 

That's Iraq where the government runs sectarian death squads.

 

That's Syria where the government is involved in a civil war every bit as bloody as Iraq. Oh yeah and they were sponsoring Al Qaeda in Iraq too.

 

Oh and Iran were killing peaceful demonstrators about 4-5 years ago.

 

Yes I can see why you are a "huge admirer". 



#84 walter sobchak

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 10:22 AM

You evidently see the whole Middle East and North Africa as "one region" where it is natural to intervene in the internal affairs of other states. Based on this, if you had any consistency, then the whole of North America, Central America and the Caribbean would be the US' backyard where they have a "right" to involve themselves in others' affairs.


You know I had a funny feeling that you'd reply to my question of "what do you class as the US's neighbourhood" in the way you did by not answering it. You didn't answer my question but rather assumed that I'd think that the US's neighbourhood would include north America, the Caribbean and Latin America because you falsely claimed that I viewed the middle east and north Africa as "one region", so I can only come to the conclusion that not only are you an apologist for US imperialism, hegomony and intervention in the midle east, north Africa and Persian gulf but you are also an apologist for US imperialism, hegomony and intervention in central America, south America and the Caribbean. You'll no doubt justify the US coups in Guatemala 54', chile 73' and Dominican republic. As well as the support for rightwing paramilitaries in el Salvador and Nicaragua and the invasions of panama and Grenada?

#85 Northern Sol

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 10:26 AM

You know I had a funny feeling that you'd reply to my question of "what do you class as the US's neighbourhood" in the way you did by not answering it. You didn't answer my question but rather assumed that I'd think that the US's neighbourhood would include north America, the Caribbean and Latin America because you falsely claimed that I viewed the middle east and north Africa as "one region", so I can only come to the conclusion that not only are you an apologist for US imperialism, hegomony and intervention in the midle east, north Africa and Persian gulf but you are also an apologist for US imperialism, hegomony and intervention in central America, south America and the Caribbean. You'll no doubt justify the US coups in Guatemala 54', chile 73' and Dominican republic. As well as the support for rightwing paramilitaries in el Salvador and Nicaragua and the invasions of panama and Grenada?

Actually it you who think that hegemony is okay. You defend Iranian hegemony. You defend Arabic hegemony under the name of "solidarity with the Palestinians".

 

I said that if you were consistent in your views, you would view American hegemony as "okay in their backyard when helping brothers and sisters". You clearly don't.

 

You are quite happy to defend the indefensible so long as the perpetrators are anti-Western. You aren't "anti-imperialistic" at all and you clearly view paramilitaries in a positive light as long as they are Islamist paramilitaries like Hamas and Hezbollah.

 

You are clearly projecting yourself onto me with by presuming that I agree with American foreign policy (which I did not say).


Edited by Northern Sol, 30 June 2013 - 10:28 AM.


#86 Li0nhead

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 10:28 AM

Are we talking the US here or the RFL?

 

You mean that global power with totally conflicting plans? Or the US? :)



#87 ckn

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 10:28 AM

I wish! I'm a huge admirer of GG, say what you will about George Galloway he was 100% right on the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and the way he dealt with the lying criminal US senate was a joy to behold. I think i enjoy watching the likes of Galloway, tony Benn, Norman finklestein and Chomsky destroy neocons and zionists more than a good game of rugby league.

I've kept out of this as it's just silly now but this post deserves a reply.  Anyone who says "Sir, I salute your courage, your strength, your indefatigability." to someone who has gassed his own people and murdered countless others is a cretin at best and a dangerous fool as the most likely option, they certainly deserve nothing but utter contempt from me.

 

Galloway and Benn are almost perfect internet trolls.  They conveniently ignore almost all of an argument but for tiny little bits that they then blow up to be a drama worthy of high opera.  As an aside, anyone who posts posts like yours in a thread like this also gets my troll-radar working on overdrive...


Arguing with the forum trolls is like playing chess with a pigeon.  No matter how good you are, the bird will **** on the board and strut around like it won anyway


#88 Li0nhead

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 10:39 AM

CKN is correct.

 

My personal world view is that the US is not perfect. Often what they do is wrong and quite stupid. 

But their aims are usually in line with ours and in terms of being the sole superpower (depends if you count China- yet) they are not a bad one to have because there are lots of historical regimes that would have done a lot worse with the power they have had.

Real world politics means they have to have conflicting views in different places. Supporting democracy in one place while supporting a dictator in another.

Is it right? no. Is it dealing with a real world situation at hand? Yes.

Not perfect but usually right or for the right reasons. 


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#89 Northern Sol

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 10:45 AM

Indeed.

 

For all it's faults I can't imagine any other country doing better given similar power even ourselves.

 

Would we prefer  China to be the sole superpower? - perhaps not    

The French? 

Russia?

Saudi Arabia?

Iran?


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#90 walter sobchak

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 11:21 AM

I've kept out of this as it's just silly now but this post deserves a reply.  Anyone who says "Sir, I salute your courage, your strength, your indefatigability." to someone who has gassed his own people and murdered countless others is a cretin at best and a dangerous fool as the most likely option, they certainly deserve nothing but utter contempt from me.
 
Galloway and Benn are almost perfect internet trolls.  They conveniently ignore almost all of an argument but for tiny little bits that they then blow up to be a drama worthy of high opera.  As an aside, anyone who posts posts like yours in a thread like this also gets my troll-radar working on overdrive...

Far be it for me to defend George Galloway but seen as though he's never likely to visit this forum as he's an oval ball Celtic fan I will. The "sir, I salute your courage, your strength, your indefatigability" quote was not aimed at saddam Hussein but Iraq and the Iraqi people who had first been bombed back into the stone age and then had sanctions placed on it that killed 1 million Iraqis, half of those children. Now I don't know you as im quite new on here and post comments infrequently so I'll have to guess that you are ignorant of the truth rather than dishonest as galloway opposed saddam Hussein's regime and the US and UK support of selling him chemical weapons during the Iraq-Iran war. Also you can google that Galloway was arrested during a protest in which he was protesting against the UK doing business with Iraq during the said war and finally did you know that the US government tried to put the blame on Iran for the gassing of the Kurds in halabja? Look it up.

#91 walter sobchak

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 11:29 AM

CKN is correct.
 
My personal world view is that the US is not perfect. Often what they do is wrong and quite stupid. 
But their aims are usually in line with ours and in terms of being the sole superpower (depends if you count China- yet) they are not a bad one to have because there are lots of historical regimes that would have done a lot worse with the power they have had.
Real world politics means they have to have conflicting views in different places. Supporting democracy in one place while supporting a dictator in another.
Is it right? no. Is it dealing with a real world situation at hand? Yes.
Not perfect but usually right or for the right reasons.

Oh! I couldn't agree more that the aims of the US are usually in line with ours(the uk) regarding Iraq, Libya, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Israel, Iran etc. maybe you'd feel different about the US and it's "aims" and whether it was doing it "for the right reasons" if you where on the receiving end of its "aims" in say Iraq, Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, Iran, Guatemala etc etc. I could go on all day.

#92 walter sobchak

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 11:31 AM

Indeed.
 
For all it's faults I can't imagine any other country doing better given similar power even ourselves.
 
Would we prefer  China to be the sole superpower? - perhaps not    
The French? 
Russia?
Saudi Arabia?
Iran?

How many countries has china, Russia and Iran invaded, occupied and bombed during the last 10 years compared to the US and UK?

#93 Li0nhead

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 12:13 PM

How many countries has china, Russia and Iran invaded, occupied and bombed during the last 10 years compared to the US and UK?

Countries very few.

Internal repression/engagements? lots.

 

China: 

Ongoing occupation of areas of India/Pakistani Kashmir.

Ongoing clashes using fishermen over disputed islands in the South China Sea

A campaign of religious repression against China’s Muslim Uighurs

Occupation of Tibet? 

Ok i will stop now but could now do a search for a lot more examples with Russia in its own republics or attacking that former soviet republic the other year which was getting a bit close to NATO or even bumping off people in other countries like in London etc.

 

Basically everyone has their dark little conflicts whether internal or external.


Edited by Li0nhead, 30 June 2013 - 12:15 PM.


#94 JohnM

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 02:12 PM

Nevertheless.  No , we shouldn't.



#95 Northern Sol

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 09:26 PM

How many countries has china, Russia and Iran invaded, occupied and bombed during the last 10 years compared to the US and UK?

They don't have the power projection capacity. It's like asking how many countries Luxembourg has invaded. 

 

Russia invaded and annexed part of Georgia that's about their limit - countries which border them. I don't recall the US annexing any land. 

 

Not to mention, they prop up some of the most despostic regimes of the planet. North Korea is China's toy. Iran controls Syria. Russia is "big daddy" to Europe's last dictator - Lukashenko of Belarus.



#96 Northern Sol

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 09:29 PM

Oh! I couldn't agree more that the aims of the US are usually in line with ours(the uk) regarding Iraq, Libya, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Israel, Iran etc. maybe you'd feel different about the US and it's "aims" and whether it was doing it "for the right reasons" if you where on the receiving end of its "aims" in say Iraq, Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, Iran, Guatemala etc etc. I could go on all day.

Maybe you would if you had to live with Hamas or Hezbollah in your neighbourhood. They've done everything that the right-wing militias of South America ever did.

 

Oh I forgot - they are the bad guys. Hamas and Hezbollah only abduct and torture political opponents out of Arabic brotherly love so it's all right.


Edited by Northern Sol, 30 June 2013 - 09:29 PM.


#97 Northern Sol

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 09:38 PM

Far be it for me to defend George Galloway but seen as though he's never likely to visit this forum as he's an oval ball Celtic fan I will. The "sir, I salute your courage, your strength, your indefatigability" quote was not aimed at saddam Hussein but Iraq and the Iraqi people who had first been bombed back into the stone age and then had sanctions placed on it that killed 1 million Iraqis, half of those children. Now I don't know you as im quite new on here and post comments infrequently so I'll have to guess that you are ignorant of the truth rather than dishonest as galloway opposed saddam Hussein's regime and the US and UK support of selling him chemical weapons during the Iraq-Iran war. Also you can google that Galloway was arrested during a protest in which he was protesting against the UK doing business with Iraq during the said war and finally did you know that the US government tried to put the blame on Iran for the gassing of the Kurds in halabja? Look it up.

Nice try but "Sir" is singular. It was aimed at Saddam.

 

Further propaganda here includes the "British and American" poison gases which were actually sold to Saddam  by a Dutch businessman.

 

Not to mention the sanctions. You took the top estimate and doubled it to make 1 million. What you forget is that Iraq had plenty of money to buy food and food was never sanctioned. Saddam and his cronies squandered the cash.

 

It was Saddam who blamed Iran for Halabja.

 

So all in all, Galloway is a complete scumbag for grovelling at the feet of a mass murderer.



#98 walter sobchak

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 01:52 PM

Maybe you would if you had to live with Hamas or Hezbollah in your neighbourhood. They've done everything that the right-wing militias of South America ever did.
 
Oh I forgot - they are the bad guys. Hamas and Hezbollah only abduct and torture political opponents out of Arabic brotherly love so it's all right.

Of course the difference between Hamas and Hezbollah compared to say the contras is that Hamas and hezbollah are legitimate resistance organizations fighting the occupation of their land and are part of the political process in both Lebanon and Palestine. with Hezbollah having 14 democratically elected seats in the parliament of Lebanon and Hamas being democratically elected into office in 2006 while the contras funded illegally by the US(Iran-contra) were right wing thugs trying to overthrow a democratically elected government in Nicaragua by violent means.

#99 walter sobchak

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 03:49 PM

They don't have the power projection capacity. It's like asking how many countries Luxembourg has invaded. 
 
Russia invaded and annexed part of Georgia that's about their limit - countries which border them. I don't recall the US annexing any land. 
 
Not to mention, they prop up some of the most despostic regimes of the planet. North Korea is China's toy. Iran controls Syria. Russia is "big daddy" to Europe's last dictator - Lukashenko of Belarus.

LOL, that's a good one, "They don't have the power projection." That'll be china with the worlds 2nd largest economy, that'll be china with the 2nd biggest defence budget of $166 billion, that'll be china with a standing army of 1.7 million active soldiers and 800,000 reservists and Russia with the 10th largest economy, 3rd biggest defence budget of $91 billion and with a standing army of 1 million active soldiers and 2 million reservists. Also Russia didn't invade south ossetia and Abkhazia, it was georgia that were the aggressors they fired the first shot according to an EU Independant international fact finding mission headed by Swiss diplomat Heidi tagliavini. Finally south Ossetia declared independence from Georgia in 1990 and Abkhazia in 1992.

#100 Li0nhead

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 04:42 PM

LOL, that's a good one, "They don't have the power projection." That'll be china with the worlds 2nd largest economy, that'll be china with the 2nd biggest defence budget of $166 billion, that'll be china with a standing army of 1.7 million active soldiers and 800,000 reservists and Russia with the 10th largest economy, 3rd biggest defence budget of $91 billion and with a standing army of 1 million active soldiers and 2 million reservists. Also Russia didn't invade south ossetia and Abkhazia, it was georgia that were the aggressors they fired the first shot according to an EU Independant international fact finding mission headed by Swiss diplomat Heidi tagliavini. Finally south Ossetia declared independence from Georgia in 1990 and Abkhazia in 1992.

 

Having a massive army is one thing.

Getting it to where it needs to go is totally different. 

China and Russia have a very large proportion of their armed forced needed for internal issues where as America for instance has the ability to put large numbers of men anywhere hence being the sole superpower (for now).

For a start you need to have a blue water Navy to have power projection which currently only 3 countries do...

 

http://en.wikipedia....ower_projection






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