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HS2 - Is it worth it?


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#21 D9000

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 10:10 AM

the railways need massive investment

this is the wrong kind

So what's the right kind?



#22 getdownmonkeyman

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 10:14 AM

the railways need massive investment

this is the wrong kind

 

Exactly the point I was going to make. Just far more succint than the waffle I was going to scribe.  



#23 JohnM

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 10:19 AM

Agreed. Yes there are capacity issues (maybe the least of the rail systems issues?)  but HS2 is looking increasingly like a cross party vanity project rather than a sensible investment...and one that is vulnerable to huge delays -  like the 20 year delay in crossrail - or complete cancellation. 



#24 JohnM

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 10:33 AM

The right investment? Same amount of money? Conservatively £35, 000,000,000? 

 

Improve the lot of the majority, rather than the lot of the minority.

 

HS 2 will be full of KPMG, Accenture, IBM consultants from the south  travelling North to tell us how to do things and KPMG, Accenture, IBM consultants from the north travelling south to tell us how to do things.

 

Here are just a few suggestions:

1. High speed rural internet

2. Abolish tolls (and delays) at Dartford crossing, Midland Expressway, Humber Bridge, Severn Bridge etc

3. Improve, restore rural bus services

4. Free car parking in market towns and seaside resorts

5. Upgrade level crossings

6. Upgrade feeder rail services - eg Skegness to Grantham, Grimsby to Doncaster

7. Re-introduce rail to the north of Scotland



#25 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 10:44 AM

So what's the right kind?

we have two perfectly good high speed routes running from London to Scotland. Invest in improving them

improve and develop cross country routes

invest in more and better commuter stock.

 

doing these things will improve the whole system for a wider range of the population

have environmental and business benefits

 

I have not mentioned freight because it doesn't relate to HS2


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#26 Severus

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 10:54 AM

The right investment? Same amount of money? Conservatively £35, 000,000,000? 

 

Improve the lot of the majority, rather than the lot of the minority.

 

HS 2 will be full of KPMG, Accenture, IBM consultants from the south  travelling North to tell us how to do things and KPMG, Accenture, IBM consultants from the north travelling south to tell us how to do things.

 

Here are just a few suggestions:

1. High speed rural internet

2. Abolish tolls (and delays) at Dartford crossing, Midland Expressway, Humber Bridge, Severn Bridge etc

3. Improve, restore rural bus services

4. Free car parking in market towns and seaside resorts

5. Upgrade level crossings

6. Upgrade feeder rail services - eg Skegness to Grantham, Grimsby to Doncaster

7. Re-introduce rail to the north of Scotland

 

Investment with the aim to improve transport for all. What's this, you going all lefty in your old age? :P


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#27 JohnM

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 11:16 AM

:lol: ohh, no, not at all! The natural progression is, as you'll find out at some point, from left to right as you grow older.  :mellow:

 

 

However, if govts of both persuasions are intent on pouring a huge amount of taxpayers money into something, we might as well all get a slice of the action.

 

One other idea I forgot to mention. £35,000,000,000 would build around 350,000 new houses, flats etc/



#28 Wolford6

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 11:29 AM


 

One other idea I forgot to mention. £35,000,000,000 would build around 350,000 new houses, flats etc/

 

Does that include meeting the  building regulations that are applied in Bulgaria, Romania, Syria, Afghanistan and Somalia?


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#29 D9000

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 12:01 PM

we have two perfectly good high speed routes running from London to Scotland. Invest in improving them

improve and develop cross country routes

invest in more and better commuter stock.

 

doing these things will improve the whole system for a wider range of the population

have environmental and business benefits

 

I have not mentioned freight because it doesn't relate to HS2

Yes, it does: if you increase the capacity of the WCML (whether by building a new line or adding extra tracks to the current one, you can move all the fast trains onto the new lines, you can use some of the paths freed up on the existing line to run more freight. If HS2 can also provide viable running times for trains from Sheffield and Leeds to London (which it can, without having to extend it very far North of Brum), then the same thing applies to the Midland and East Coast lines. 

 

I really don't see how you can increase capacity on the southern end of the WCML without building a new line. Further North, planned schemes include the Norton Bridge flyover and Stafford remodelling. (The Birmingham New Street remodelling doesn't address train capacity).

 

Meanwhile:

Investing in other main lines out of London: Midland Main Line electrification planned: Hitchin flyover on ECML built and open: Chiltern line extension to Oxford under construction: Great Western Main Line electrification, construction commenced; Reading remodelling, construction well advanced, partly open.

 

Investing in cross country lines: Northern Hub scheme, construction commenced: North West electrification, under construction; Trans Pennine electrification, planned; Edinburgh - Glasgow electrification, construction about to commence; Welsh Valleys electrification planned.

 

Freight: Electric spine scheme planned (if they can work out how to have overhead and third-rail between Basingtoke and Southampton).

 

Commuter stock: order just signed with Siemens for 110 Desiro City trains, which will trigger a cascade of EMUs all over the place, shunting, we can only hope, a lot of Pacers to the scrapyard.

 

So yeah. That kind of thing is already happening. And, yes, of course more might always be done, but everything can't be done at once.



#30 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 12:22 PM

Yes, it does: if you increase the capacity of the WCML (whether by building a new line or adding extra tracks to the current one, you can move all the fast trains onto the new lines, you can use some of the paths freed up on the existing line to run more freight. If HS2 can also provide viable running times for trains from Sheffield and Leeds to London (which it can, without having to extend it very far North of Brum), then the same thing applies to the Midland and East Coast lines. 

 

I really don't see how you can increase capacity on the southern end of the WCML without building a new line. Further North, planned schemes include the Norton Bridge flyover and Stafford remodelling. (The Birmingham New Street remodelling doesn't address train capacity).

 

Meanwhile:

Investing in other main lines out of London: Midland Main Line electrification planned: Hitchin flyover on ECML built and open: Chiltern line extension to Oxford under construction: Great Western Main Line electrification, construction commenced; Reading remodelling, construction well advanced, partly open.

 

Investing in cross country lines: Northern Hub scheme, construction commenced: North West electrification, under construction; Trans Pennine electrification, planned; Edinburgh - Glasgow electrification, construction about to commence; Welsh Valleys electrification planned.

 

Freight: Electric spine scheme planned (if they can work out how to have overhead and third-rail between Basingtoke and Southampton).

 

Commuter stock: order just signed with Siemens for 110 Desiro City trains, which will trigger a cascade of EMUs all over the place, shunting, we can only hope, a lot of Pacers to the scrapyard.

 

So yeah. That kind of thing is already happening. And, yes, of course more might always be done, but everything can't be done at once.

now that's one meaty post: something to chew over there mate

You are of course right.

My point was that the HS2 money should be spent on these areas. HS2 seems irrelevant to the UK's transport and environmental needs


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#31 D9000

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 12:36 PM

The right investment? Same amount of money? Conservatively £35, 000,000,000? 

 

Improve the lot of the majority, rather than the lot of the minority.

 

HS 2 will be full of KPMG, Accenture, IBM consultants from the south  travelling North to tell us how to do things and KPMG, Accenture, IBM consultants from the north travelling south to tell us how to do things.

 

Here are just a few suggestions:

1. High speed rural internet

2. Abolish tolls (and delays) at Dartford crossing, Midland Expressway, Humber Bridge, Severn Bridge etc

3. Improve, restore rural bus services

4. Free car parking in market towns and seaside resorts

5. Upgrade level crossings

6. Upgrade feeder rail services - eg Skegness to Grantham, Grimsby to Doncaster

7. Re-introduce rail to the north of Scotland

 

1. Agreed. Being done, slowly. I haven't got superfast fibre optic yet, but even with CPPT (copper to the pole) my linespeed is fast enough for anything, really.

2. Agreed. Been done in some places (Skye) and 5,000 truckers are being issued with free passes for the M6 Toll.

3. No. Waste of time. Give people who cannot use private transport in deep rural areas free taxi passes.

4. Where do the extra parking spaces come from? I live in a market town which is also a seaside resort, and we're stuffed already in high season.

5. Yes, but can be hellishly expensive if the upgrade is 'build a bridge instead'.

6. Yes ... but what's wrong with the train from Grimsby to Donny?

7. Which bit of the North of Scotland is lacking rails?



#32 JohnM

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 12:38 PM

Yes, it does: if you increase the capacity of the WCML (whether by building a new line or adding extra tracks to the current one, you can move all the fast trains onto the new lines, you can use some of the paths freed up on the existing line to run more freight. If HS2 can also provide viable running times for trains from Sheffield and Leeds to London (which it can, without having to extend it very far North of Brum), then the same thing applies to the Midland and East Coast lines. 

 

I really don't see how you can increase capacity on the southern end of the WCML without building a new line. Further North, planned schemes include the Norton Bridge flyover and Stafford remodelling. (The Birmingham New Street remodelling doesn't address train capacity).

 

Meanwhile:

Investing in other main lines out of London: Midland Main Line electrification planned: Hitchin flyover on ECML built and open: Chiltern line extension to Oxford under construction: Great Western Main Line electrification, construction commenced; Reading remodelling, construction well advanced, partly open.

 

Investing in cross country lines: Northern Hub scheme, construction commenced: North West electrification, under construction; Trans Pennine electrification, planned; Edinburgh - Glasgow electrification, construction about to commence; Welsh Valleys electrification planned.

 

Freight: Electric spine scheme planned (if they can work out how to have overhead and third-rail between Basingtoke and Southampton).

 

Commuter stock: order just signed with Siemens for 110 Desiro City trains, which will trigger a cascade of EMUs all over the place, shunting, we can only hope, a lot of Pacers to the scrapyard.

 

So yeah. That kind of thing is already happening. And, yes, of course more might always be done, but everything can't be done at once.

 

That kind of thing is already happening.  But is it really? progress/ resources/priorities?

 

 viable running times? Is this from the train point of view or the passengers?  I am sure there has been lots of analysis of passengers start and finish destinations,  where they live etc. but really, how many people will start their trip in central Birmingham and finish it in central london?  Add in hone t local station, local station to "hub".  then "terminus" to meeting place and I reckon that there will not be much saving in time overall.



#33 D9000

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 12:40 PM

now that's one meaty post: something to chew over there mate

You are of course right.

My point was that the HS2 money should be spent on these areas. HS2 seems irrelevant to the UK's transport and environmental needs

 

Stop thinking of it as a high speed railway, and think of it instead as 'extra tracks'. The high speed part is kind of irrelevant, really: it's the extra tracks that are important.



#34 D9000

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 12:51 PM

That kind of thing is already happening.  But is it really? progress/ resources/priorities?

 

 viable running times? Is this from the train point of view or the passengers?  I am sure there has been lots of analysis of passengers start and finish destinations,  where they live etc. but really, how many people will start their trip in central Birmingham and finish it in central london?  Add in hone t local station, local station to "hub".  then "terminus" to meeting place and I reckon that there will not be much saving in time overall.

 

1. yes it is! My linespeed is amazing compared to only a few years ago, and as I say we're still on copper. Still, always more could be done. And should be.

 

2. No, no, no, it doesn't work like that. Under phase 1 of the HS scheme (which in IMO is the only bit that is required) the train to London will start from exactly the same place in Leeds or Sheffield or Manchester as it does now, but instead of proceeding all the way on the current lines, it will divert itself onto the new line just North of Brum, and be just as quick or quicker as the current service. The paths formerly occupied by these fast services on the current lines will then be freed up for more stopping services, and freight. Take all the Leeds expresses off the East Coast Main Line and there is room for (e.g.) Grimsby and Lincoln to have a regular service to London again. Or for more trains between Leicester, Nottingham and Derby. Etc. Ignore all the guff about extending HS lines to Leeds, Manchester, or (heaven help us) Scotland: it's guff, and not needed.



#35 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 12:57 PM

Stop thinking of it as a high speed railway, and think of it instead as 'extra tracks'. The high speed part is kind of irrelevant, really: it's the extra tracks that are important.

I see what you mean

still not convinced


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#36 JohnM

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 01:01 PM

1. Agreed. Being done, slowly. I haven't got superfast fibre optic yet, but even with CPPT (copper to the pole) my linespeed is fast enough for anything, really.

2. Agreed. Been done in some places (Skye) and 5,000 truckers are being issued with free passes for the M6 Toll.

3. No. Waste of time. Give people who cannot use private transport in deep rural areas free taxi passes.

4. Where do the extra parking spaces come from? I live in a market town which is also a seaside resort, and we're stuffed already in high season.

5. Yes, but can be hellishly expensive if the upgrade is 'build a bridge instead'.

6. Yes ... but what's wrong with the train from Grimsby to Donny?

7. Which bit of the North of Scotland is lacking rails?

 

 

1. Max speed around here is 8 Mbps. 

2. Free passes is an RHA initiative and for one month only. Delays, high fuel consumption in traffic queues, late deliveries through delays at Dartford Tunnel..and  stlll no hope of salvation

3. Agreed...same issue though

4. The spaces are already there. People park in the street to avoid charges. Or if you live in Eastbourne, there will be a staff turnover as older parkers expire during the day.

5. Even proper barriers might reduce the number of incidents. Footbridges might help,and £35,000,000,000 will build a few bridges and tunnels...like it will for HS2 bridges and tunnels

6. There is isn't one. It's fallen in a hole.

7. Most of it,



#37 JohnM

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 01:03 PM

Stop thinking of it as a high speed railway, and think of it instead as 'extra tracks'. The high speed part is kind of irrelevant, really: it's the extra tracks that are important.

 

 If it was just extra tracks, then we shouls have a good deal of change from £35,000,000,000



#38 D9000

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 01:16 PM

 If it was just extra tracks, then we shouls have a good deal of change from £35,000,000,000

 

Oh, I agree. The cost inflation is silly, but mostly hot air. We already have a high speed line, which was built on time and to budget: people ought to be taking that as a template and extrapolate the figures from that, instead of the guff we hear. That 35 billion is for building phase 2 as well, which isn't necessary: that really is political b******cks. Phase 1 is all that's needed.



#39 D9000

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 01:22 PM

1. Max speed around here is 8 Mbps. 

2. Free passes is an RHA initiative and for one month only. Delays, high fuel consumption in traffic queues, late deliveries through delays at Dartford Tunnel..and  stlll no hope of salvation

3. Agreed...same issue though

4. The spaces are already there. People park in the street to avoid charges. Or if you live in Eastbourne, there will be a staff turnover as older parkers expire during the day.

5. Even proper barriers might reduce the number of incidents. Footbridges might help,and £35,000,000,000 will build a few bridges and tunnels...like it will for HS2 bridges and tunnels

6. There is isn't one. It's fallen in a hole.

7. Most of it,

 

I think 1 through 5 fall into the 'there are no easy answers' category. Politicians like to pretend there are easy answers to all sorts of things, and there aren't.

 

6. Well, more like a hill fell on it. To re-commence later this month, all being well. Anyway, what's wrong with it when running normally?

7. Most of it never had railways. Which bit do you mean?



#40 D9000

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 01:28 PM

I see what you mean

still not convinced

 

 Well, not everybody is, even within the industry. I think it's worth doing (phase 1 only!) and not just because it will become the quickest route back North for me ... (GW to Old Oak Interchange, change to a Manchester train, also neatly avoiding 4 hours on a Cross Country Voyager).






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