Jump to content





Photo
- - - - -

Challenging the received wisdom


  • Please log in to reply
19 replies to this topic

#1 Pottsy

Pottsy
  • Coach
  • 3,541 posts

Posted 04 July 2013 - 07:42 PM

!

Edited by Pottsy, 04 July 2013 - 08:16 PM.


#2 Pottsy

Pottsy
  • Coach
  • 3,541 posts

Posted 04 July 2013 - 07:42 PM

Whenever the Promotion & Relegation debate rears it's head one of the truisms about this issue that always gets trotted out goes along the lines of:

"All that ever happened was that the promoted team would sign all the players released by the relegated team."

I've heard this reeled off as fact twice on Sky Sports this week alone but was just wondering: is there any actual empirical evidence to support this assertion?


Any ideas?

#3 l'angelo mysterioso

l'angelo mysterioso
  • Coach
  • 42,221 posts

Posted 04 July 2013 - 07:43 PM

that would depend on whether they were neighbourinfg clubs to an extent

but I doubt if it was reallyb true


WELCOME TO THE ROYSTON VASEY SUPER LEAGUE 2015
Keeping it local

#4 Pottsy

Pottsy
  • Coach
  • 3,541 posts

Posted 04 July 2013 - 07:47 PM

It's an honest question, Chris. I heard it repeated as fact constantly but have no idea whether it's true or not.

#5 l'angelo mysterioso

l'angelo mysterioso
  • Coach
  • 42,221 posts

Posted 04 July 2013 - 08:33 PM

It's an honest question, Chris. I heard it repeated as fact constantly but have no idea whether it's true or not.

mate I know it is

 

this is a purely impressionistic reply:

but from what I remember promoted clubs woiuld sign-

players with good records but who were at the end of their careers

fringe players from big clubs

unknown overseas players

players that the coach knew would 'do a job for him'

 

it is highly unlikely that say a club from the west side of the pennines would sign the players of a relegated club from the east side of the pennines, although I'm sure it did happen.


WELCOME TO THE ROYSTON VASEY SUPER LEAGUE 2015
Keeping it local

#6 South Wakefield Sharks

South Wakefield Sharks
  • Coach
  • 2,224 posts

Posted 04 July 2013 - 08:45 PM

It's a bit of nonsense spouted by Stevo. A gross exaggeration.

 

Cas signed Andrew Henderson, Peter Lupton & Ryan Clayton from Salford when they went down. And Hull KR previously signed Danny Ward & Luke Dyer from Cas, when Cas went down.

 

It's a bit like saying Wakey are a feeder club to Huddersfield (Brough, Ferres, George, Grix, Murphy, Wood et al) or Cas for Hull FC (Arundel, Lynch, Westerman et al).

 

Two or three players was the sort of numbers. Usually steady enough pros.



#7 Dave T

Dave T
  • Coach
  • 15,723 posts

Posted 04 July 2013 - 10:18 PM

I think it is one of the issues with debates and discussion around P&R and the structures. People go into sensationalist mode rather than actually looking at what happens.



#8 Ant

Ant
  • Coach
  • 3,208 posts

Posted 05 July 2013 - 06:48 AM

I don't know about that but I do know when Huddersfield were scudding along the bottom of Superleague and then when they were winning promotion they struggled to sign decent players

Players didn't want to sign with a club they didn't know which division they might be in the year after and so by the time it was clear if they were up or down the best players they targeted had signed on elsewhere leaving the journeymen that weren't good enough for us

The biggest turning point for the Giants is when they moved up in Superleague and away from the relegation scrap, then they could sign players of a good quality and for more than a year

That's the real problem with players being signed under P&R

The teams struggling can't improve and the teams wanting promotion can't strengthen

#9 Bulliac

Bulliac
  • Coach
  • 2,727 posts

Posted 05 July 2013 - 09:57 AM

As a 'catch-all' basic truism it is fairly accurate if you discount the word "all".

 

I think it would be [pretty obviously] silly and wrong to pretend that any promoted club ever took on the entire playing staff of the relegated side, but most often that is what happens to the better players in the relegated team - along with all the others suggested by the mysterious Mr Angelo, and a precious few of those who earned the promotion, of course... But clearly, it's fairly inevitable, since all the SL contracts will be voided by the relegation and those full-time rugby players will want a job and the main club hiring [often desperately trying to put a side together in a few short months, when all the better players have already signed elsewhere] is likely to be the one just promoted. Hence, here we go round the mulberry bush..


No team is an island.........................................

http://www.flickr.co...s/31337109@N03/

#10 Dave T

Dave T
  • Coach
  • 15,723 posts

Posted 05 July 2013 - 10:30 AM

As a 'catch-all' basic truism it is fairly accurate if you discount the word "all".

I think it would be [pretty obviously] silly and wrong to pretend that any promoted club ever took on the entire playing staff of the relegated side, but most often that is what happens to the better players in the relegated team - along with all the others suggested by the mysterious Mr Angelo, and a precious few of those who earned the promotion, of course... But clearly, it's fairly inevitable, since all the SL contracts will be voided by the relegation and those full-time rugby players will want a job and the main club hiring [often desperately trying to put a side together in a few short months, when all the better players have already signed elsewhere] is likely to be the one just promoted. Hence, here we go round the mulberry bush..

well yes thats the theory often repeated but has that ever been the reality?

#11 Bulliac

Bulliac
  • Coach
  • 2,727 posts

Posted 05 July 2013 - 02:18 PM

well yes thats the theory often repeated but has that ever been the reality?

Of course, to a larger or smaller extent, every season end with P&R. The whole thing is a bit of a cliché but things only become that way because they are largely recognised as being true.

 

Let's be fair, most recruiting for the next season is done through the current year, which tends to leave only the 'leftovers' for the promoted club to pick up and this leaves them in a pretty invidious position when the majority of half decent, experienced players available are from the club which wasn't good enough the previous year. It's no real wonder that the yo-yo became another unwanted cliché.


No team is an island.........................................

http://www.flickr.co...s/31337109@N03/

#12 tonyXIII

tonyXIII
  • Coach
  • 5,046 posts

Posted 06 July 2013 - 07:43 AM

I think the idea is overstated, but it did happen and for the reasons above.

 

There was one player (a centre, I think) who was in the relegated team three years in a row. Cas, Widnes and Salford, but maybe not in that order. IIRC! (I can't remember his name, but I'll go away and look.) He would seem to back up the original 'myth'. Not good enough, but available.

 

Gray Viane?


Edited by tonyXIII, 06 July 2013 - 07:49 AM.

Rethymno Rugby League Appreciation Society
Founder (and, so far, only) member.


#13 Padge

Padge
  • Coach
  • 18,288 posts

Posted 06 July 2013 - 08:06 AM

You can look all you want, you won't find team 'A' suddenly becoming team 'B', you'll find some players did move from A to B, but not a team.

 

You will find a team full of players not up to it has been replaced by another team full of players not up to it (including some from the previous team), and I think that is where this comes from.



Visit my photography site www.padge.smugmug.com
Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007
Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits.


#14 Dave T

Dave T
  • Coach
  • 15,723 posts

Posted 06 July 2013 - 09:21 AM

You can look all you want, you won't find team 'A' suddenly becoming team 'B', you'll find some players did move from A to B, but not a team.

You will find a team full of players not up to it has been replaced by another team full of players not up to it (including some from the previous team), and I think that is where this comes from.

yes - this is the point, but due to lazy journalism its suggested that the other way happens.

#15 Ant

Ant
  • Coach
  • 3,208 posts

Posted 06 July 2013 - 09:22 AM

No you won't, but what you will find on record is players specifically not signing for teams because they couldn't be certain of which league the team would be in.

#16 Padge

Padge
  • Coach
  • 18,288 posts

Posted 06 July 2013 - 09:31 AM

No you won't, but what you will find on record is players specifically not signing for teams because they couldn't be certain of which league the team would be in.

 

Until they realise they have no choice, players will always try to go where success is, and the successful teams will get first pick. A player who wants to stay pro will eventually sign for (if wanted) the club that is lowest in the pecking order rather than walk away from any contract.

 

Players, in general, do not pick clubs, clubs pick players, until the point is reached where neither has a choice.



Visit my photography site www.padge.smugmug.com
Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007
Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits.


#17 Ant

Ant
  • Coach
  • 3,208 posts

Posted 07 July 2013 - 09:02 AM

You're missing the point

In their promotion season Huddersfield had agreed terms with at least one "top" name, but because Huddersfield couldn't guarantee they'd be in Superleague he went to another club - for lower pay

Clubs looking to build strength find it impossible to do so until they can't be certain which league they are playing in

#18 Padge

Padge
  • Coach
  • 18,288 posts

Posted 07 July 2013 - 09:18 AM

You're missing the point

In their promotion season Huddersfield had agreed terms with at least one "top" name, but because Huddersfield couldn't guarantee they'd be in Superleague he went to another club - for lower pay

Clubs looking to build strength find it impossible to do so until they can't be certain which league they are playing in

So the club picked the player they wanted, the fact he turned it down is neither here nor there.

 

The club would then move on and pick their next player until they get a player or has a I said they finish up with Hobson's choice.



Visit my photography site www.padge.smugmug.com
Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007
Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits.


#19 Ant

Ant
  • Coach
  • 3,208 posts

Posted 07 July 2013 - 09:53 AM

Are you wilfully missing the point,

They ALWAYS end up with Hobson's choice until their certainty arrives

#20 Padge

Padge
  • Coach
  • 18,288 posts

Posted 07 July 2013 - 10:08 AM

Are you wilfully missing the point,

They ALWAYS end up with Hobson's choice until their certainty arrives

No I'm not, I suggest you read all of my posts in this topic.



Visit my photography site www.padge.smugmug.com
Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007
Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits.





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users