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Smug Inverdale 'The Sexist' in Hot Water

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#101 Johnoco

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 07:29 PM

Couldn't have put it better myself Phil. Absolutely spot on.

#102 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 07:43 PM


So why is it that white, heterosexual, working class males are somehow lower on some indefinable moral scale than, say, a black disabled lesbian?

Don't get me wrong I'm not a racist, I have female friends who are lesbians and have mates of both sexes who are disabled. BUT I'm ###### off at the demonisation of the straight white working class male. I've done nothing wrong, I've nothing to apologise for and yet middle class trendy feminist lefty arty farty ######s would have us believe we're somewhere alongside the great criminals of history.

So lets set the record straight here, all the great battles for freedom in this country have been fought by (mainly) working class white men. Who stopped Moseley's fascists at Cable Street? White working class men.

Who fought the middle class yeomanry at Peterloo? White working class men.

Who fought the great battles for trade union recognition and for the freedom to organise in the 19th century? White working class men.

Who beat Hitler and the Nazis? (Mainly) white working class men

The fact is there's not much difference between right-wing patricians like Cameron and his ilk and the trendy latte sipping feminist middle class lefties, they're all scared of white working class men, why? Because they see in us something they are lacking, they see life and love and humour, because we are the real deal. As I said we've done nowt wrong we've nowt to apologise for.

Who says that they are demonised?
Married men are invariably made to look stupid compared to women in advertising but that isn't age or race specific
White working class men absolutely did not win the Second World War nor did they lose it
World War Two was total war and everyone had a hand in it
In the us blacks were limited in the combat roles they could undertake - for instance in the us baby they could only be servants or cooks and black men were held back in the other two services by segregation and unwillingness to commit them
Industry would have ground to a halt for the allies without women and people of different races ' involvement in the us the main industrial powerhouse of the war. Men and women of all sorts if races fought in the soviet armed services
The decision makers were white men alright but invariably upper class or lower down middle class as were the officers who died alongside their working class comrades
The fascists involved in the battle of cable street were mostly white working class men

We're there no middle class men or women opposing the blackshirts? George Orwell springs to mind

Edited by l'angelo mysterioso, 10 July 2013 - 07:53 PM.

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#103 Phil

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 07:54 PM

Who says that they are demonised?
 

 

 

Well I do for one Chris  :tongue:  an example, I was having a discussion with a very "right on" feminist type who countered one of my points by saying "well yes but as a white heterosexual male you would say that" as if my class colour and orientation somehow made my opinion less worthy than that of someone who was none of those things.

 

Look at the demonisation of the working class as "chavs" and tell me that the middle class "right-on" lefty isn't the enemy of the working class just as much as the tories.  I'm someone who genuinely believes that the workers will one day transform society, but that we can do it without the assistance of outside agencies.


Edited by Phil, 10 July 2013 - 07:55 PM.

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#104 gingerjon

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 08:09 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Joan


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#105 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 08:10 PM

Well I do for one Chris :tongue: an example, I was having a discussion with a very "right on" feminist type who countered one of my points by saying "well yes but as a white heterosexual male you would say that" as if my class colour and orientation somehow made my opinion less worthy than that of someone who was none of those things.

Look at the demonisation of the working class as "chavs" and tell me that the middle class "right-on" lefty isn't the enemy of the working class just as much as the tories. I'm someone who genuinely believes that the workers will one day transform society, but that we can do it without the assistance of outside agencies.

All working class people on benefits are belittled as chavs whatever their age or gender
The right on feminist was talking #### : its bigoted to stereotype anybody
That doesn't mean there is universal it institutional demonisation of white working men

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#106 Johnoco

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 08:21 PM

White working class males *are* demonised.
If the 2 World Wars were indeed a joint effort, let's have a breakdown of the number of women killed on the front line, or even just in general conflict. How many middle class people were killed in the Somme?

#107 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 08:36 PM

White working class males *are* demonised.
If the 2 World Wars were indeed a joint effort, let's have a breakdown of the number of women killed on the front line, or even just in general conflict. How many middle class people were killed in the Somme?

The Somme was fought between two sets if working class makes lead by middle/upper class makes
Nobody actually won the battle

And battles aren't won neither are wars by who has the most people killed

Wars are win by country's with the biggest and best economic/agricultural/industrial infrastructure

They are won by the people designing and building the weapons and the number they produce and by the amount of they can produce... The entire population of a country is involved in that
On the allies side there was little opportunity for black working class or middle class to take part in combat: apart from Japanese whose entire armed forces and population where non white well it wasn't an option was it

The First World War was won because of the collapse of the German economy and its inability to feed its population
The Second World War was lost because the Japanese and Germans couldn't match the scale of soviet us industrial and agricultural production and because the axis was complete over stretched militarily

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#108 Johnoco

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 08:41 PM

So how many women and middle class people killed was that again?

#109 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 09:13 PM

So how many women and middle class people killed was that again?


Man this is a bit sick and beside the point

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#110 Severus

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 09:27 PM


So why is it that white, heterosexual, working class males are somehow lower on some indefinable moral scale than, say, a black disabled lesbian?

Don't get me wrong I'm not a racist, I have female friends who are lesbians and have mates of both sexes who are disabled. BUT I'm ###### off at the demonisation of the straight white working class male. I've done nothing wrong, I've nothing to apologise for and yet middle class trendy feminist lefty arty farty ######s would have us believe we're somewhere alongside the great criminals of history.

So lets set the record straight here, all the great battles for freedom in this country have been fought by (mainly) working class white men. Who stopped Moseley's fascists at Cable Street? White working class men.

Who fought the middle class yeomanry at Peterloo? White working class men.

Who fought the great battles for trade union recognition and for the freedom to organise in the 19th century? White working class men.

Who beat Hitler and the Nazis? (Mainly) white working class men

The fact is there's not much difference between right-wing patricians like Cameron and his ilk and the trendy latte sipping feminist middle class lefties, they're all scared of white working class men, why? Because they see in us something they are lacking, they see life and love and humour, because we are the real deal. As I said we've done nowt wrong we've nowt to apologise for.


Where are white working class males demonised? I consider myself part of this demographic and I don't feel demonised. Compared to what non-white or women have had to put up with we have had it easy.
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#111 Severus

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 09:30 PM

So how many women and middle class people killed was that again?


Are you seriously trying to score points based on the number of people who died in a conflict? Strewth.
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#112 WearyRhino

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 10:27 PM

There are a number of confused issues here. Sociologically speaking, the white working class has changed beyond recognition (that's not to say that those of us who self-identify as such are wrong) as modes of production have been transformed. Filling the gap left, is a socio-economic class employed in unproductive insecure jobs or condemned to long term unemployment - often defined as an underclass and popularly known as "Chavs". Without a doubt these people HAVE been demonised, by the popular media and, dare I say it, what remains of the traditional white working class.

Many middle class thinkers/politicians/activists of the left have always been contemptuous of the working class, male or female.

Cable Street was blockaded and the battle fought by Jewish (and Irish) immigrants and white working class politicised Eastenders against white working class donkeys led by a white upper class egomaniac and their Met Police protectors and collaborators.

#113 Johnoco

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 10:28 PM

Are you seriously trying to score points based on the number of people who died in a conflict? Strewth.

Scoring points? You mean pointing out the truth.

Phil correctly said that working class males bore the brunt of the two world wars. L'ang tried to claim it was an equal effort by all. So surely if this is true then all the other demographs of people will have incurred similar losses surely?
But they weren't, were they?

#114 Johnoco

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 10:30 PM

Where are white working class males demonised? I consider myself part of this demographic and I don't feel demonised. Compared to what non-white or women have had to put up with we have had it easy.

Unless I am mistaken, you are a lecturer or something? Hardly a dead end job. Good on you, but you aren't working class.

#115 Wolford6

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 10:34 PM

The definition of a bayonet is ... a military weapon which, when in use, requires the presence of a worker at both ends.


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#116 Northern Sol

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 11:13 PM

I'm hoping you're cracking a funny!

I am aware that it is a myth.



#117 Northern Sol

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 11:18 PM

Are you seriously trying to score points based on the number of people who died in a conflict? Strewth.

Do you think if the dead had been largely female or largely black we'd have ever heard the end of it?

 

It's not like Irish nationalists have never tried to make political capital out of how many British "glorious dead" were Irish.

 

Like many things it is sick if "the wrong side" bring it up but to be flogged to death if "the right side" feel like mentioning it.


Edited by Northern Sol, 10 July 2013 - 11:19 PM.


#118 Severus

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 01:21 AM

Unless I am mistaken, you are a lecturer or something? Hardly a dead end job. Good on you, but you aren't working class.


Both parents left school at 16. Mother was a baker, father was a machinist (later a work study engineer). Educated at a comprehensive school with low academic ambition. Grew up in a one car family and was 22 before I got to fly (via work) and 23 before I had a foreign holiday. Worked as a pot washer, batman and factory worker before my current position. I consider myself working class, and should point out that this isn't a badge of honour or something to be proud of, just a fact.
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#119 Severus

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 01:28 AM

Scoring points? You mean pointing out the truth.

Phil correctly said that working class males bore the brunt of the two world wars. L'ang tried to claim it was an equal effort by all. So surely if this is true then all the other demographs of people will have incurred similar losses surely?
But they weren't, were they?


More working class people died simply because of the numbers. Death rates for junior officers were far higher than enlisted men in WWI.
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#120 gingerjon

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 05:45 AM

Do you think if the dead had been largely female or largely black we'd have ever heard the end of it?

 

It's not like Irish nationalists have never tried to make political capital out of how many British "glorious dead" were Irish.

 

Like many things it is sick if "the wrong side" bring it up but to be flogged to death if "the right side" feel like mentioning it.

 

I grew up hearing the 'lions led by donkeys' and tales of the betrayal of the working class etc.

 

This was in school.  Backed up by pretty much every 'popular' view of history at the time.  How many officers aren't stupid in Blackadder?

 

The dead were largely white and working class - and it's been part of our living culture ever since.


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