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Harry Sunderland (Be Careful Don't Get it Locked)


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#21 Northern Sol

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 11:01 PM

Again, this is interesting, but what has been added to the debate?

Not a lot but it was interesting nevertheless. 



#22 Martyn Sadler

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 11:50 PM

The sunderland trophy is a very high honour, he appears to be less than savoury character. I started with an open mind on this, but the mor I dig the more i tend towards l'ange's view.

 

It may not be popular, Martyn has made his view quite clear, however I feel that the award should be questioned.

 

Thinking about I think we should have a rule/law that says that these awards should only last for a set number of years and then be passed on.

I'm not even sure you've got any proof that he was a "less than savoury" character.

 

He certainly knew how to look after number one, but if that were a disqualification, there would be few people who we could name anything after.

 

Sunderland was involved with the Queensland Rugby League before the First World War, which was a time when rugby union went defunct in that state. And in the years after that he was a Rugby League evangelist, more successful in some places than others.

 

So on that basis I'm sure you'd have got some support from the RFU and the Australian Rugby Union about him being an unsavoury character, and no doubt the Vichy government in France would have been on your side too.

 

But clearly Harold Mathers, who you obviously admired, and his colleagues didn't take much note of the rugby union authorities when they nominated him for the award after his death in 1964.

 

I think we should draw the line with them.



#23 Derwent

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 08:28 AM

None of us are in a position to judge the man, as none of us knew him. Those who may have supported the case for either side are long gone and so what it boils down to is simple opinion. It doesn't matter how many archived press cuttings you've trawled through, it is still only an opinion that is incapable of being proved beyond doubt.

I would ask this question though - if he was such an unsavoury character, someone of dubious opinions and morals, then why on earth would his peers of the time see fit to name an award after him ? They knew the man far better than anyone on here did - so by implication their judgement is being questioned. I mean, Sunderland did not bestow the honour on himself, so the members of the RLWA must have thought him a worthy person to honour in this way.

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#24 Chronicler of Chiswick

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 09:40 AM

Unfortunately people with talent and drive in their chosen profession tend not to be very nice as individuals. Possibly the 19th. century's greatest and most innovative operatic composer and director was Richard Wagner who as a person was a quite revolting anti-semitic egomaniac. This doesn't, however detract from his work (incidentally he died of a heart attack following a row with his wife - you have been warned!).



#25 Mistress_Marlowe

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 03:05 PM

I'm just supposing a scenario where someone proposed a medal or something in his name. Would certain people disliking him outweigh whatever reason they had for proposing him in the first place? That's the only point I'm making, ie should all the people we honour be whiter than white?

 

Is it just me that sees the irony? :ph34r:


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#26 Martyn Sadler

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 04:22 PM

Just to resurrect a thread that was put to bed in July.

 

At the Albert Goldthorpe Medal ceremony recently we gave a Lifetime Achievement Award to Harry Jepson, a former director of Hunslet, Leeds and the RFL.

 

Harry knew Harry Sunderland personally, as well as Roy Francis.

 

I asked Harry specifically about whether Sunderland was a racist in any sense of the word, and he was quite shocked that such a thing should even be suggested. He had never seen any sign of it, and Roy Francis had never spoken to him about anything to the same effect.

 

I thought it worth reporting on here, given the original thread that questioned Sunderland's possible racism.

 

But perhaps we should let this thread now sink once again to the bottom of the page and beyond.



#27 RLDave

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 04:34 PM

I'm sure Lee Briers will take it no matter who it's named after.
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#28 Padge

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 04:50 PM

I'm sure Lee Briers will take it no matter who it's named after.

Or whoever its awarded to.   :D



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#29 keighley

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 05:56 PM

The sunderland trophy is a very high honour, he appears to be less than savoury character. I started with an open mind on this, but the mor I dig the more i tend towards l'ange's view.

 

It may not be popular, Martyn has made his view quite clear, however I feel that the award should be questioned.

 

Thinking about I think we should have a rule/law that says that these awards should only last for a set number of years and then be passed on.

 

I think that most people look at the award in the context of who was man of the match in the Grand Final and most have no inkling of the history behind it or any details of Sunderland and do not know who he was.

 

I think the name of the award has evolved away from the identity of the man whose name is on it and this will continue as the years go by. It's like the words Biro and Hoover. They have evolved away from the original products after which they were named and are now words for a vacuum cleaner and a ball point pen.

 

Maybe we should just let sleeping dogs lie and have the true facts about Sunderland, such as they are to remain marooned in the history books.



#30 fieldofclothofgold

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 11:58 AM

For Harry Sunderland see Woodrow Wilson
but you and I weve been through that and this is not our fate.
So let us so let us not talk falsely now.
The hour is getting late
FROM 2004,TO DO WHAT THIS CLUB HAS DONE,IF THATS NOT GREATNESSTHEN i DONT KNOW WHAT IS.

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#31 Martyn Sadler

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 12:04 PM

For Harry Sunderland see Woodrow Wilson

Not sure what point you're making.

 

Woodrow Wilson was a segregationist, and that fact is fully documented.

 

There is no parallel with Harry Sunderland.



#32 Viking Warrior

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 12:06 PM

no brainer.............the harold wagstaff medal. our very own dally m.
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#33 hindle xiii

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 12:11 PM

I'm sure Lee Briers will take it no matter who it's named after.

Sam Tomkins. Easy.

 

Eddie just wants one last nibble before Sam leaves him sobbing on the platform.


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#34 fieldofclothofgold

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 01:26 PM

Not sure what point you're making.

 

Woodrow Wilson was a segregationist, and that fact is fully documented.

 

There is no parallel with Harry Sunderland.

I know,but it just reminded me about the publicity W W is getting over here in the USA right now.Apparently there is a film coming out about his life and there are many people didn't know this side of him segregationist or racist.It maybe fully documented to a well read person like you,but believe me there are many many people over here who didn't know.Even I knew he said the film BIRTH OF A NATION  was true.


but you and I weve been through that and this is not our fate.
So let us so let us not talk falsely now.
The hour is getting late
FROM 2004,TO DO WHAT THIS CLUB HAS DONE,IF THATS NOT GREATNESSTHEN i DONT KNOW WHAT IS.

JAMIE PEACOCK