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The never-ending League Restructure debate (Many merged threads)


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#4501 Keith T

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 08:14 PM

Why does it have to be the table toppers?  It specifically refers to the top 2 in the Championship (clubs 3&4 in Tier 2 in 2015).  Could easily be the grand finalists.

 

And should be.

 

Because from 2015 there isn't a GF for the middle group of 8 where the top 4 Championship clubs go after the 23 league matches have been played.


I remember when .............................

"It is impossible not to feel a twinge of sympathy for Workington Town, the fall guys this season for the Super League's determination to retain it's European dimension, in the shape of Paris. While the French have had every assistance to survive, the importance of having a flagship in a heartland area like West Cumbria has been conveniently forgotten." - Dave Hadfield - Independent 25th August 1996.


#4502 gingerjon

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 08:17 PM

Because from 2015 there isn't a GF for the middle group of 8 where the top 4 Championship clubs go after the 23 league matches have been played.

 

Are we at cross-purposes?  I thought you were discussing how the teams would be ranked for distribution at the start of the 2015 season.  That's based on finishing positions (including relegation) in 2014.


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#4503 The Parksider

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 09:11 PM

Dont you watch Hunslet?

 

Not that much. My lad is a Leeds fan.



#4504 Keith T

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 11:21 PM

I think confusion is being made here with these posts.    The 2014 season is still covered by the licensing system until December 2014 and therefore the Championship is exactly the same as it has been during the licensing seasons prior to this one.

 

The finishing positions in the league this season will decide only the amount of funding in the 2015 season and which teams will be relegated.    The Grand Final will be played as normal with the same prize money as in previous years and this will be the last Grand Final for the Championship as there is no provision for it under the new system from 2015.   The policy document talks of Clubs 1 and 2 getting 50% (or very nearly) of SL clubs funding and all the other Tier 2 clubs will receive central distribution of funds with meritocratic payments to the 3rd and 4th placed teams.   

 

At the commencement of the 2015 season the two relegated teams will pick up the top two prizes of Tier 2 and what should have been going to the 3rd and 4th placed teams will be going to the teams that finished 1st and 2nd in the 2014 season.   Likewise the last placed team amount will go the club promoted from Championship 1.

 

Of course all of this may have altered quite significantly but that, I believe, is the basis of what the Championship clubs were agreeing to support and I don't think they meet again until later this month.


I remember when .............................

"It is impossible not to feel a twinge of sympathy for Workington Town, the fall guys this season for the Super League's determination to retain it's European dimension, in the shape of Paris. While the French have had every assistance to survive, the importance of having a flagship in a heartland area like West Cumbria has been conveniently forgotten." - Dave Hadfield - Independent 25th August 1996.


#4505 Oxford

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 02:21 AM

Parksider 

Again not meant as an attack on you just the general trend of pessimism that seems to linger around our sport generally.Good that you're looking forward to the season  though! I don't have a clue how the Red Devils will go this year  but I am intrigued by the response overall to their change of fortune and the reactions to the good Doctor. There are people who have said so many similar things on this very website yet insults are often the only outcome for him. I know you think it will all come crashing down but I get the feeling that you and you're not alone want it to end badly and that's what I can't fathom at all. I also reacted to your misspelling of his name was that deliberate?



#4506 The Parksider

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 06:22 AM

I believe eventually there will have to be less clubs, Which those clubs will be I don't know,, but It wont be the ones without any money.

 

I suspect we will never agree, so we will have to agree to differ

 

I don't think we differ much. We both believe there will have to be less clubs.

 

We both believe these clubs have to have money.

 

Where we wildly differ is the definition of having money. You think it's having a multi-millionaire owner.I think it's having a large fan base and many local businesses interested in the club

 

Which club is the richer one? One with empty stands and no academy,or one with 15,000 fans packed in and a vibrant player production line?. I think the latter.

 

Your accountancy seems such that just because the rich man has £Millions in the bank the club is rich. Please consider the salary cap, he can be no richer than that in his input - unless he spends well on his academy which he doesn't.

 

You seem to think going into administration means a club has no money. Bradford will have £1.800,000 a year from SKY more than the salary cap, Bradford will have big crowds whether 8,000 or 15,000. To paint them as having no money is wrong, they didn't  have enough money  because their fellow clubs took £1,200,000 off them. That's the truth of it.

 

Finally you take the stance that we should have less clubs but that if we cut the number of clubs fans "won't watch another club". How can you know the minds of tens of thousands of RL fans and assume they all think the same? We saw with Bradord that their "fans" in 1995 numbered an average of 5654.

 

Somehow they managed to attract another 10,000 fans and more? All Bradford born, never been outside of Bradford?

 

I'm fine to agree to disagree but the points  above are there to deal with if you wish.


Edited by The Parksider, 05 February 2014 - 06:38 AM.


#4507 The Parksider

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 06:32 AM

Parksider 

 

Again not meant as an attack on 

 

I don't have a clue how the Red Devils will go this year  but I am intrigued by the response overall to their change of fortune and the reactions to the good Doctor. Insults are often the only outcome for him. I know you think it will all come crashing down but I get the feeling that you and you're not alone want it to end badly and that's what I can't fathom at all. I also reacted to your misspelling of his name was that deliberate?

 

Try again please.

 

I am not the one going round insulting Marwan Koucash?.

 

I do not "want it to end badly" where on earth do you get that rubbish from?

 

Your stance seems to be that I should be sat here wishing all clubs win the league, all 37 of them.

 

They won't, sport is about winners and losers, for every winner there is a loser, but apparently I'm not allowed to talk about who may be losers and if I do I apparently want them to lose.

 

Again you have told me what I think, when all you had to do was ask.

 

I think that mega rich men taking on clubs with few fans and little player development are more likely to be the losers because what people cannot get their head round is SKY are now paying the salary bills of the SL clubs. The RFL are currrently maintaining a £1.65 salary cap.

 

So if Mr. Koucash has £Billions to put into Salford he cannot do it. He says so himself. So how is he going to get them to the top as things stand??



#4508 Griff

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 09:14 AM

Because from 2015 there isn't a GF for the middle group of 8 where the top 4 Championship clubs go after the 23 league matches have been played.

 

I have to agree with gingerjon.  Just because we change the structure in 2015 doesn't mean that we must go for the league placings in 2014.

 

On the one hand, we're telling the fans that the Grand Final is all-important.  On the other hand, money says it isn't.

 

It's traditional RL management - we can't make up our minds.


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#4509 GIANTSTRIDES

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 01:28 PM

I don't think we differ much. We both believe there will have to be less clubs.

 

We both believe these clubs have to have money.

 

Where we wildly differ is the definition of having money. You think it's having a multi-millionaire owner.I think it's having a large fan base and many local businesses interested in the club

 

Which club is the richer one? One with empty stands and no academy,or one with 15,000 fans packed in and a vibrant player production line?. I think the latter.

 

Your accountancy seems such that just because the rich man has £Millions in the bank the club is rich. Please consider the salary cap, he can be no richer than that in his input - unless he spends well on his academy which he doesn't.

 

You seem to think going into administration means a club has no money. Bradford will have £1.800,000 a year from SKY more than the salary cap, Bradford will have big crowds whether 8,000 or 15,000. To paint them as having no money is wrong, they didn't  have enough money  because their fellow clubs took £1,200,000 off them. That's the truth of it.

 

Finally you take the stance that we should have less clubs but that if we cut the number of clubs fans "won't watch another club". How can you know the minds of tens of thousands of RL fans and assume they all think the same? We saw with Bradord that their "fans" in 1995 numbered an average of 5654.

 

Somehow they managed to attract another 10,000 fans and more? All Bradford born, never been outside of Bradford?

 

I'm fine to agree to disagree but the points  above are there to deal with if you wish.

 

Well we aren't that far apart in our end game, but you keep on taking what i say i think will happen, as what i want to happen, They are two very different things.

 

I believe somewhere down the line, (maybe after my time and yours ) that Clubs will have to reduce, whether there are mergers or not, but i expect it to have more to do with money and being able to keep standards up than the size of crowds. 

 

You know as well as i do that in the real world of League, Sky are funding it, Till they came along Wigan won everything for a decade, the rest were also ran's.

 

The latest deal is reportedly £200.000000, Now you tell me in your honest opinion, Do you really think Sky care what Bradfords ( or anyone elses crowd is ) They are paying that kind of money to sell dishes, not cause they love Rugby league. For that  money they want as many as poss  sat in front of the telly, with your Direct debit ticking along. Very cynical ? maybe ,but It's what's happening.

I agree that the clubs with big crowds will still be the bigger clubs because of the extra revenue, but thats fine they deserve to be.

 

I agree with you about Bradford, If they had a money man and a half decent stadium, they could be right up there with the best, ( they have been ) But at this moment in time they don't have either one , and so unless that changes they will always struggle,  The upkeep of the ground alone must be daunting.

 

In the future it will be the clubs who Know how to market themselves, How to get in big paying sponsers, how to make their clubs ,like Wigan or Leeds if you like, And I'm not saying Fartown will be one of them. Wolves and Saints are getting there, Despite being close together. Hull have every chance, Catalan are growing,

 

Big crowds are very desirable, but they are by no means essential, The future will be about getting to the levels of the Aussies, On the field and off it, It will not be easy because of Soccer, But it will either go forward with people like IL or it will go nowhere like it was when Sky came along, Just my opinion , and it may not be what we all want , But it's what Sky want that matters, they more or less own the game now.

 

Regards Salford and the Dr, I don't know how they will go, I hope they go well, They will certainly be better than they were, If they compete well and are good to watch, that will do me, If the Dr pulls out a few years down the track , So what ! they will have had some good years and they can start up again like any other club.


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#4510 keighley

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 01:57 PM

Try again please.

 

I am not the one going round insulting Marwan Koucash?.

 

I do not "want it to end badly" where on earth do you get that rubbish from?

 

Your stance seems to be that I should be sat here wishing all clubs win the league, all 37 of them.

 

They won't, sport is about winners and losers, for every winner there is a loser, but apparently I'm not allowed to talk about who may be losers and if I do I apparently want them to lose.

 

Again you have told me what I think, when all you had to do was ask.

 

I think that mega rich men taking on clubs with few fans and little player development are more likely to be the losers because what people cannot get their head round is SKY are now paying the salary bills of the SL clubs. The RFL are currrently maintaining a £1.65 salary cap.

 

So if Mr. Koucash has £Billions to put into Salford he cannot do it. He says so himself. So how is he going to get them to the top as things stand??

 

Sport is indeed about winners and losers. You seem to want the current winners to remain the current winners into the foreseeable future and have no time for the list of winners to change.  If your approach was to be the norm and we were in the 1960's, you would be in favour of retaining Swinton in SL/1st Division because they are a big team ( Champions, big round, decent crowds ).

 

Clearly Swinton crashed and burned because they didn't do the work necessary to remain at the top but your approach would have had then ring fenced because they were big in that present.

 

You are taking the same approach now in your defence of the Bulls. You picked a moment in time when they were top dogs and want them retained at the top for ever because of that success.  

 

Salford and Huddersfield and Widnes have improved for the cellar to the top level but because they were not elite at the time Bradford and Leeds and Wigan were, in your slice of time that set the makeup of SL for all time they are not big clubs and are in a false position because they have investors. Oh please.

 

Winners change and losers become loser and vice versa.

 

We need real  and r to enable this natural evolution of winners and losers to take place easier. 



#4511 Oxford

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Posted 05 February 2014 - 06:25 PM

"I do not "want it to end badly" where on earth do you get that rubbish from?"  I am glad about that! Did you not say it will not end well at least once?

"I am not the one going round insulting Marwan Koucash" - Again the misspelling I asked you about !

 

I don't think I accused you personally of attacking the good doctor and if I did that was completely unintentional and not the aim of what I wrote!

 

I do find much criticism of SRD and MK to be questionable and I find it hard to understand what motivates people in this direction??



#4512 Rover and out

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Posted 06 February 2014 - 04:54 AM

Check out how it's to be funded Griff, two SL clubs to drop to the championship and with parachute payments to be given and another half a million to be given them if they then finish first or second they should be the ones in pole position to get back there.

Check out the funding for the current CC clubs likely to be 3-12. Peanuts in comparison, awful deal for the Championship clubs IMHO however I'll let your well honed financial mind makes it's own judgement....


But you've just pointed out that if hunslet had a millionaire backer it wouldn't make a difference as they'd still be restricted to whatever they could spend with the salary cap so surely the two relegated teams won't be able to spend any more than the rest of the championship so it wouldn't give them any advantage in getting promoted.
And on the point of millionaire owners being bad for the game, it all depends how the money is spent, for example Moran at Warrington has spent money investing in their academy which has helped as we are now seeing a lot more Warrington juniors playing in sl. To a lesser extent Campbell and nahaboo at Fev are investing in facilities at the ground with the new stand being built and also with new training facilities and more coaches so that the club can bring through more home grown players. Hopefully this sort of investment will help Fev if we ever get sl as would mean we wouldn't have to chuck money at other teams and steal academy lads off cas wakey.
I know wait for you to tell me how I'm wrong and it's bad for the game and how nahaboo should have gone wot wakey with his money 😉

#4513 The Parksider

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Posted 06 February 2014 - 06:58 AM

I don't think I accused you personally of attacking the good doctor and if I did that was completely unintentional and not the aim of what I wrote!

 

I do find much criticism of SRD and MK to be questionable and I find it hard to understand what motivates people in this direction??

 

I'll be cheering from the rooftops if Salford came to Headingley and did Leeds. I haven't seen that since David Ward's Leeds were done many years ago. I recall getting in free at half time after we'd been away and I got back for the second half. I'm a big supporter of the "underdog" then and nowadays so I naturally hate Wigan and want their world to come crashing down. I loathe HKR by the way.

 

That's sport in it's entertainment/pleasure sense, but when the last ball is kicked I like many others on here feel that Salford need to get their fanbase back up and develop junior RL around the M60. It's a big enough place and all roads lead to Barton. There is no option to pay 17 of the worlds best RL players £half a million a year and compensate their clubs to the tune of the same sum.

 

So maybe the less than ecstatic welcome for the doctor is based on him wanting to smash the salary cap, create wage inflation and tell all us fools we have it wrong. You deduce I want him to fail because of that?

 

Well flip it over, look at the other side of things. He's saved Salford from death and created tremendous interest so maybe that outweighs the negatives for me.


Edited by The Parksider, 06 February 2014 - 07:02 AM.


#4514 The Parksider

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Posted 06 February 2014 - 07:24 AM

1. But you've just pointed out that if hunslet had a millionaire backer it wouldn't make a difference as they'd still be restricted to whatever they could spend with the salary cap so surely the two relegated teams won't be able to spend any more than the rest of the championship so it wouldn't give them any advantage in getting promoted.

 

2. And on the point of millionaire owners being bad for the game, it all depends how the money is spent, for example Moran at Warrington has spent money investing in their academy which has helped as we are now seeing a lot more Warrington juniors playing in sl. To a lesser extent Campbell and nahaboo at Fev are investing in facilities at the ground with the new stand being built and also with new training facilities and more coaches so that the club can bring through more home grown players.

 

Well I do not think that SL2 will be operating on a £300K salary cap Mr. Out. I've made an assumption that won't be the case, you've assumed it will. For me they cannot set up a P & R system then load it such that no movement can happen at all.

 

I know Mr. Moran is a Millionaire many times over. He's picked up a big club in Wire, and they have a new ground and have had investment in the junior side of things, and they have attracted many more fans and done the game proud.

 

But his personal financial status is mostly irrelevant to what he's done, what is relevant is Warrington as a big club with big potential have had the required investment to get them up there with Leeds. Wigan and Saints. They now contribute a high level of RL, big crowds and junior development.

 

I personally want that elsewhere to boost the game, and just because an owner is a £Millionaire doesn't mean he'll invest in the things that can develop the club into a true Superleague giant, or that investment will work. He may be lazy and just look to buy up a team and discount tickets to buy a crowd.

 

I find it frustrating when small clubs get investment from rich people that bears little fruit like at Huddersfield, and maybe Salford, when nobody picks up Wakefield and Bradford. I've nothing against any club or rich owner etc. I simply want Superleague to be the strongest it can. That means if investment is going in it needs to be the right clubs.

 

That's why my structure would be to have one club with the strongest potential per region in SL and that's that. If millionaires want in pick a club free to invest in pick one of these. Don't pick up Hunslet and fight Leeds for the resources. 

 

In our game this is self destructive IMVHO, in soccer they just ship the worlds best players in and the fans come wherever. I just want to see the strongest SL was can.



#4515 The Parksider

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Posted 06 February 2014 - 07:46 AM

You know as well as i do that in the real world of League, Sky are funding it, Till they came along Wigan won everything for a decade, the rest were also ran's.

 

The latest deal is reportedly £200.000000, Now you tell me in your honest opinion, Do you really think Sky care what Bradfords ( or anyone elses crowd is ) They are paying that kind of money to sell dishes, not cause they love Rugby league.

 

I agree with you about Bradford, If they had a money man and a half decent stadium, they could be right up there with the best, ( they have been ) But at this moment in time they don't have either one , and so unless that changes they will always struggle,  The upkeep of the ground alone must be daunting.

 

Big crowds are very desirable, but they are by no means essential, The future will be about getting to the levels of the Aussies, On the field and off it,

 

Thank you for replying.

 

I know that the SKY contract is just to stick a load of RL on telly to sell adverts in between the action. But does that mean it doesn't matter that many of clubs don't have much of a physical audience??

 

Physical interest by people in RL means they start to get interested in playing and forming Junior clubs. Why do Wigan have such a strong junior scene if not for the fact they've had 14,000 people interested in the club for what 30 years?? Why is junior RL growing strongly in Leeds? Is it baecause they've had big crowds for 25 years? Does it help to get kids playing and dads organising if the local SL club are a big attractive one?

 

You say the future is getting to the  levels of the NRL/Aussies. Why are they strong?? Is it because SKY pay £Millions for their clubs to play in half empty stadia?? Or is it because the game has a much bigger standing amongst the public themselves who in turn pay to watch, and organise their kids to play.

 

You say a club will "always struggle" without a rich mans subsidies. For me that's not true at all.

 

Leeds don't struggle, Caddick puts little in. Saints and Wigan struggle no more and their chairmen are keen to not be cash cows. Same at Hull, Pearson aims for a break even business. You discount the new TV deal and the TV money taken off Bradford - why would they now struggle??

 

My case is RL needs investment into the biggest clubs to attract maximum direct physical interest in the game to them, to in turn grow the local infrastructure of our game. Fartown play Wigan tomorrow, between them they mopped up the three trophies. Leeds and Salford will be busting a gut to change that.

 

You tell me  honestly that there'd be no difference difference between an SL of 12 Wigans/Leeds type clubs against an SL of 12 Fartown/salford type clubs????



#4516 Griff

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Posted 06 February 2014 - 09:32 AM

But you've just pointed out that if hunslet had a millionaire backer it wouldn't make a difference as they'd still be restricted to whatever they could spend with the salary cap so surely the two relegated teams won't be able to spend any more than the rest of the championship so it wouldn't give them any advantage in getting promoted.
 

 

Agree with Parky here.  The parameters are yet to be set and it's no good making ex cathedra claims like this for the time being.  We'll have to wait and see.


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#4517 Keith T

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Posted 06 February 2014 - 10:35 AM

But you've just pointed out that if hunslet had a millionaire backer it wouldn't make a difference as they'd still be restricted to whatever they could spend with the salary cap so surely the two relegated teams won't be able to spend any more than the rest of the championship so it wouldn't give them any advantage in getting promoted.


If the Championship salary cap is set £900,000, which is the figure mentioned in the policy document, then £788,000 and £787,000 are much closer to that figure than £500,000!!

I remember when .............................

"It is impossible not to feel a twinge of sympathy for Workington Town, the fall guys this season for the Super League's determination to retain it's European dimension, in the shape of Paris. While the French have had every assistance to survive, the importance of having a flagship in a heartland area like West Cumbria has been conveniently forgotten." - Dave Hadfield - Independent 25th August 1996.


#4518 sgt pepper

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Posted 06 February 2014 - 12:15 PM

Does anyone know when the announcement is to be made, I thought the meeting was today

#4519 The Parksider

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Posted 06 February 2014 - 01:22 PM

If the Championship salary cap is set £900,000, which is the figure mentioned in the policy document, then £788,000 and £787,000 are much closer to that figure than £500,000!!

 

Mr. Sadler says the two relegated SL clubs this year will receive £788K and £787K. Lets hope people's dreams come true for them and it's Bradford and Wakefield.

 

He then states the two clubs who finish first and second in the championship (let's go for rivals to the pair above Halifax and Featherstone) will receive £550K and £500K.

 

I think that is enough for the four of them to go into 2015 all on £900K max cap spend if that was what it is.

 

But Bradford and Wakey have the option to retain their best SL players who don't leave to stay in SL and have SL academy lads to fall back on?. Whilst Fev and Fax have to find £600K's worth of players apiece and may not be able to use any of their players who don't want to turn professional for what may not be any more than a year.

 

I think (if I have that right) it's an appalling idea for trying to get free movement between the leagues!

 

Then (and again it's confusing) if four clubs can compete on £900K salary caps 2015 season in a 12 club cc what will the other 8 be able to do against them?? As it stands they are all skint and don't get any more than £250K


Edited by The Parksider, 06 February 2014 - 01:24 PM.


#4520 yipyee

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Posted 06 February 2014 - 01:39 PM

Mr. Sadler says the two relegated SL clubs this year will receive £788K and £787K. Lets hope people's dreams come true for them and it's Bradford and Wakefield.

 

He then states the two clubs who finish first and second in the championship (let's go for rivals to the pair above Halifax and Featherstone) will receive £550K and £500K.

 

I think that is enough for the four of them to go into 2015 all on £900K max cap spend if that was what it is.

 

But Bradford and Wakey have the option to retain their best SL players who don't leave to stay in SL and have SL academy lads to fall back on?. Whilst Fev and Fax have to find £600K's worth of players apiece and may not be able to use any of their players who don't want to turn professional for what may not be any more than a year.

 

I think (if I have that right) it's an appalling idea for trying to get free movement between the leagues!

 

Then (and again it's confusing) if four clubs can compete on £900K salary caps 2015 season in a 12 club cc what will the other 8 be able to do against them?? As it stands they are all skint and don't get any more than £250K

 

 

We are told that Leigh have money to burn....

Fev if they are outside the top 2 also....

 

North Wales seem capable of raising capital?

Sheffield also seem to be improving turnover whilst keeping in profit?

 

There maybe around 6 clubs in the championship who could scrape together 10-15 full time players.....It will be the clubs with the full time backroom staff who will prosper!






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