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The never-ending League Restructure debate (Many merged threads)


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#4541 GIANTSTRIDES

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Posted 07 February 2014 - 04:17 PM

You don't understand my point whether deliberately or conveniently I don't know.

 

There is a difference between clubs with high numbers of actual fans and clubs with low numbers of fans.

 

That difference is worth a lot of money and it's worth a lot of players.

 

Bradford have proved they can pull 15,000 and produce juniors who become top players. Salford have proved they can't pull the crowds or develop top local players.

 

So if you have Salford in Superleague and not Bradford, so interest in watching and playing wanes in Bradford  as it does/has in the Championship areas, then you lose the interest of thousands of fans and local junior players.

 

All your saying is as long as SKY and a rich man work in unison to fund a club it would not matter if nobody came to watch and nobody played the game locally. After all you can ship in a load of antipodeans to make up the team.

 

But where you fall down is you ignore that the game is richer for SKY, then it is richer for paying fans, and it is richer again for the development of local players into professionals.

 

Sure, in recent years clubs lacked adequate resources to be Super clubs and the paltry TV money didn't make up the shortfall. That we have £200,000,000 now means we can find 12 clubs best suited to use that money to develop their crowds and develop players for the game.

 

12 clubs sharing £200M over 5 years = £3.3Million a season a club. Set up right a professional made for TV league would not need these mega rich men you somehow think are investing in the game. They aren't investing at all. They are making up losses, and where they elbow out from SL bigger clubs they would be creating losses.

 

 

 

Bradford have proved in the past they can pull in 15.000 crowds ! I agree.   What's happening ?, Bradford are fighting to survive. The game will go on with or without Bradford, ( hopefully with it )

 

We could ship in a load of antipodeans !  Whats Happening ?, Loads of antipodeans, And Its worth a mention here that the Bradford team you keep reminding me of , and that i so enjoyed watching, with it's 20.000 crowds could almost have represented NZ, So as you say we could always get in a load of antipodeans.

 

Do you remember the Salford days of Watkins and Fielding , I'm sure you do, I don't remember what the crowds were but i remember them being good to watch,  What's happening ?. they have the best side they have had for many many years, Don't care if they only get 5.000, If they are good to watch I'll be happy.

 

 

 Lets just agree to differ. I am talking about what is happening, You are Talking about what could happen in an ideal world. Would you like to take the game back 20 years, to Before SKY and the money men, I know i wouldn't , I admire Wigan as a club immensely but i don't want them to win everything.


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#4542 Steve May

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Posted 07 February 2014 - 05:25 PM

We could ship in a load of antipodeans !  Whats Happening ?, Loads of antipodeans, And Its worth a mention here that the Bradford team you keep reminding me of , and that i so enjoyed watching, with it's 20.000 crowds could almost have represented NZ, So as you say we could always get in a load of antipodeans.

 

That's a really interesting point.  In fact, the game when Bradford played host to Leeds in front of an SL record 24,000 at Odsal was arguably the peak of Bullmania.

 

In the Bulls 17 that day were three Kiwis (the Pauls and Tevita Vaikona) and three Aussies (Withers, Boyle, Donougher)

 

 

Parky also said this, as a criticism of the Giants.

 


Another May gem is "The Giants first choice 17 has 4 Huddersfield Academy products in it".

 

 

And at the very height of Bullmania we see a Bradford squad with er...... 4 Bradford Academy products in it.    Peacock, Jowitt, Fielden and Pryce.


That's me.  I'm done.


#4543 GIANTSTRIDES

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Posted 07 February 2014 - 05:56 PM

That's a really interesting point.  In fact, the game when Bradford played host to Leeds in front of an SL record 24,000 at Odsal was arguably the peak of Bullmania.

 

In the Bulls 17 that day were three Kiwis (the Pauls and Tevita Vaikona) and three Aussies (Withers, Boyle, Donougher)

 

 

Parky also said this, as a criticism of the Giants.

 

 

 

And at the very height of Bullmania we see a Bradford squad with er...... 4 Bradford Academy products in it.    Peacock, Jowitt, Fielden and Pryce.

 

Very good point, You can make stats work this way and that, What matters at the end of the day is what is actually happening.

Wherever Salford finish this season, they will be a much better side and hopefully good to watch, This has nothing to do with other clubs, it has to do with  Salford and their owner.

 

I feel really sorry for the Bulls Fans, None of the misfortune that they are suffering is the fans fault as far as i can see. When they were at the top, they gave us some pain on the field, which is fair enough,  and a lot of their fans gave us some pain of it, ( not on this forum i hasten to add )

 

Nevertheless They lit up SL along with Saints and others in it's early days and i would hazard the odd Groat they will be OK, whether they can ever be as good again remains to be seen, but i wish them well.


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#4544 The Parksider

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Posted 07 February 2014 - 10:59 PM

1. Do you remember the Salford days of Watkins and Fielding , I'm sure you do, I don't remember what the crowds were but i remember them being good to watch,  What's happening ?. they have the best side they have had for many many years, Don't care if they only get 5.000, If they are good to watch I'll be happy.

 

 2. Lets just agree to differ. I am talking about what is happening, You are Talking about what could happen in an ideal world. Would you like to take the game back 20 years, to Before SKY and the money men, I know i wouldn't , I admire Wigan as a club immensely but i don't want them to win everything.

 

1. Clearly you are superficially happy if someone provides some entertainment for you. Be a punter if you want. I'll remain passionate that RL builds on solid foundations.

 

2. We can differ but not on the false premises you offer. I am talking not about what could happen but what is actually happening. A club on low crowds with poor junior development is set to replace a club with many more fans and good junior development because Davey's money pays for the losses of his club to the detriment of their neighbouring club who bring much more resource to Rugby League.

 

Your appalling second false premise is about me taking the game back 20 years. Those were the days it was a free for all and one club dominated. Don't pin that on me. I'm for central planning to prevent such financial domination and always have been.

 

Your linking of "SKY" and "Moneymen" as though it's the same thing is IMHVO convenient nonsense.

 

SKY money evenly shared enables the bigger clubs to become professional which in turn boosts crowds and fans.

 

A Rich mans money enables small clubs to become professional along with the TV money, but as small clubs they don't offer the crowds nor the players to the game.

 

No rich man is pumping money into Saints, Bradford and Hull.....

 

Average crowds over 10,000, top class SL professionals 20

 

Rich men are pumping money into Fev, Fartown and Salford

 

Average crowds 4,000, top class SL professionals 11

 

The proposal I make is simple. Put the biggest clubs with the biggest potential in SL.

 

Rich men at small clubs merely fund losses to the detriment of clubs who create gains.  We do not need them.


Edited by The Parksider, 07 February 2014 - 10:59 PM.


#4545 Lobbygobbler

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Posted 07 February 2014 - 11:14 PM

Just received this on email from Leigh.
Following a meeting between the RFL and the championship clubs yesterday Thursday 6th February 2014 at the Big Fella's Stadium Featherstone, Leigh Centurions have announced their complete support of the RFL and its new structures that were presented to them.

Football Director Derek Beaumont who represented the club at the meeting with club director Allan Rowley commented;

“I would like to congratulate Nigel Wood and his team for all their hard work to bring this format to life. They have given the game a heartbeat and an opportunity to all to become masters of their own destinies. The composed and assured manner in which the RFL have dealt with this process is testament to their beliefs and ambition for our great game. They have come into some very harsh criticism in the public domain and I am sure this did not help them negotiate what is a ground breaking broadcasting deal with SKY TV”

“I would also like to thank Mark Campbell and his team at Featherstone for their hospitality and the professional manner in which they staged the meeting. Visiting the Big Fella’s Stadium brought back memories of my first stint in rugby league ten years ago when we were banging on Super League's door from Hilton Park. The new structures provide more opportunities to championship clubs who are not as fortunate as us to have the world class facilities afforded to us by our partners Leigh Sports Village. The older grounds possess character and it is good that they won’t hinder ambitious clubs from grasping the nettle”

“It was talk of the new structure that re-engaged me personally with rugby league as there was the vision of a clear pathway to achieve over time in a controlled measured manner as any business would expect to grow. I sincerely hope that the innovative structure re-engages many more business men, sponsors and spectators in their droves to put the great game of rugby league up at the top of the sporting tree. It is inspiring and comforting to know that in the RFL we have a leader that has courage of its convictions to make changes and to adapt to modern eras for the greater good of the game and I sincerely hope they are rewarded for that with some explosive meaningful games across all facets of the competition”

“At Leigh Centurions we are prepared for that challenge and ready to take advantage of the opportunity created for us. We have a home grown ex international player as our coach who is young and vibrant and was named championship coach of the year in 2012. Together and with the rest of our coaching team we have assembled a squad with a mix of experience and youth that we believe will have the power and pace to deliver our goals. We have a board of management that would be envied by any business in or outside of the sporting circles and one that would cost seven figures to employ. We have the stage at LSV that is the envy of the championship and what I consider the best playing surface in rugby league as a whole and we are extremely proud of our partnership with the Leigh Sports Village which continues to grow from strength to strength”

“These are extremely exciting times for Leigh Centurions, and the game as a whole, and we really are now ready to kick on to take our opportunity afforded by the RFL with both hands”

Leigh Centurions start their campaign hosting Batley Bulldogs at 3pm Sunday 16th February 2014 at the Leigh Sports Village and are hoping to see a large vociferous crowd cheering them on.


Good to hear.

I shall be at the match against Batley. Reckon it will be a big crowd

#4546 gingerjon

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Posted 08 February 2014 - 09:11 AM

Well, we'll see, Terry.  Apparently league positions is favourite but it's not been ratified.

 

But that's a strange thought - we change part of our system this year and another part next year.

 

It is league positions apparently.

 

The jeopardy-loving RFL don't want to cock up their plans by relying on play-offs to determine this bit of the structure.


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#4547 DAZROVER1985

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Posted 08 February 2014 - 09:18 AM

1. Clearly you are superficially happy if someone provides some entertainment for you. Be a punter if you want. I'll remain passionate that RL builds on solid foundations.

2. We can differ but not on the false premises you offer. I am talking not about what could happen but what is actually happening. A club on low crowds with poor junior development is set to replace a club with many more fans and good junior development because Davey's money pays for the losses of his club to the detriment of their neighbouring club who bring much more resource to Rugby League.

Your appalling second false premise is about me taking the game back 20 years. Those were the days it was a free for all and one club dominated. Don't pin that on me. I'm for central planning to prevent such financial domination and always have been.

Your linking of "SKY" and "Moneymen" as though it's the same thing is IMHVO convenient nonsense.

SKY money evenly shared enables the bigger clubs to become professional which in turn boosts crowds and fans.

A Rich mans money enables small clubs to become professional along with the TV money, but as small clubs they don't offer the crowds nor the players to the game.

No rich man is pumping money into Saints, Bradford and Hull.....

Average crowds over 10,000, top class SL professionals 20

Rich men are pumping money into Fev, Fartown and Salford

Average crowds 4,000, top class SL professionals 11

The proposal I make is simple. Put the biggest clubs with the biggest potential in SL.

Rich men at small clubs merely fund losses to the detriment of clubs who create gains. We do not need them.

using a non super league club to weigh facts in your favour against other super league clubs is a bit wrong don't you think?

#4548 redjonn

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Posted 08 February 2014 - 11:13 AM

Just a note on comparing attendance. Of course bigger the crowd the better but also important is the revenue from that crowd,  Bradford may seem to get more through the turnstiles but how does the paying demographic compare.  Having loads of juniors and families is really good to see but may not help the revenue.  Same for commercial and hospitality - look at the difference between Leeds/Wigan v the likes of Bradford..... mind you the facilities at Leeds/Wigan are much superior and hence helps command higher price.

 

Even if Bradford Wigan and Leeds for example all had same gates and hospitality numbers the revenues would be far greater at Leeds and Wigan.   Something to consider when thinking long term.


Edited by redjonn, 08 February 2014 - 11:15 AM.


#4549 Griff

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Posted 08 February 2014 - 11:28 AM

It is league positions apparently.

 

The jeopardy-loving RFL don't want to cock up their plans by relying on play-offs to determine this bit of the structure.

 

It is, is it ?  The meeting's on the 14th.


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#4550 gingerjon

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Posted 08 February 2014 - 12:52 PM

It is, is it ?  The meeting's on the 14th.


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#4551 The Parksider

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Posted 08 February 2014 - 07:27 PM

using a non super league club to weigh facts in your favour against other super league clubs is a bit wrong don't you think?

 

I come across this style of debate a lot where if the point isn't to someones liking they try to pick at the reasoning, find a problem and declare the whole thing null and void.

 

It's Fev who are the "non super league club". Now let's see......

 

Featherstones best crowds in the top division in living memory are 4722....

 

Nope that doesn't change the overall point. Put the big clubs in SL and back them for maximum real growth.



#4552 The Parksider

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Posted 08 February 2014 - 07:33 PM

Just a note on comparing attendance. Of course bigger the crowd the better but also important is the revenue from that crowd,  Bradford may seem to get more through the turnstiles but how does the paying demographic compare.  Having loads of juniors and families is really good to see but may not help the revenue.  Same for commercial and hospitality - look at the difference between Leeds/Wigan v the likes of Bradford..... mind you the facilities at Leeds/Wigan are much superior and hence helps command higher price.

 

Even if Bradford Wigan and Leeds for example all had same gates and hospitality numbers the revenues would be far greater at Leeds and Wigan.   Something to consider when thinking long term.

 

That's a good point, best illustrated by Castleford who put 6,292 into their stadium last year and announced late on that the stadium was a massive problem as it didn't draw the income streams. Some clubs have said they can break even on 10,000 crowds like Bradford and HKR. Salford and Widnes said they could break even on 8,000 thanks to the stadium facilities.



#4553 GIANTSTRIDES

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Posted 08 February 2014 - 07:48 PM

1. Clearly you are superficially happy if someone provides some entertainment for you. Be a punter if you want. I'll remain passionate that RL builds on solid foundations.

 

2. We can differ but not on the false premises you offer. I am talking not about what could happen but what is actually happening. A club on low crowds with poor junior development is set to replace a club with many more fans and good junior development because Davey's money pays for the losses of his club to the detriment of their neighbouring club who bring much more resource to Rugby League.

 

Your appalling second false premise is about me taking the game back 20 years. Those were the days it was a free for all and one club dominated. Don't pin that on me. I'm for central planning to prevent such financial domination and always have been.

 

Your linking of "SKY" and "Moneymen" as though it's the same thing is IMHVO convenient nonsense.

 

SKY money evenly shared enables the bigger clubs to become professional which in turn boosts crowds and fans.

 

A Rich mans money enables small clubs to become professional along with the TV money, but as small clubs they don't offer the crowds nor the players to the game.

 

No rich man is pumping money into Saints, Bradford and Hull.....

 

Average crowds over 10,000, top class SL professionals 20

 

Rich men are pumping money into Fev, Fartown and Salford

 

Average crowds 4,000, top class SL professionals 11

 

The proposal I make is simple. Put the biggest clubs with the biggest potential in SL.

 

Rich men at small clubs merely fund losses to the detriment of clubs who create gains.  We do not need them.

 

 

No rich man is pumping money into Saints, Bradford and Hull.....

 

Don't know what this proves, Other than two have money men behind them, the other is Fighting for survival.

 

Two of them play in great modern stadia, the other have a millstone round their neck.

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Average crowds over 10,000, top class SL professionals 20

 

Should all go very well this year then

 

___________________________________________________________________

 

 

Rich men are pumping money into Fev, Fartown and Salford

 

Average crowds 4,000, top class SL professionals 11

 

 

I wonder if KD has realised that  the last year average  of 6.500, is in your real world actually 4.000, and we have donated the rest to a championship side, And with so few professionals between us , It's a miracle we managed to give Wigan a game at all last night.  

 Deary me.

 

 

_______________________________________________________________________

 

The proposal I make is simple. Put the biggest clubs with the biggest potential in SL.

 

 

All you need now is someone to impliment it,  Is it worth me holding my breath.

 

It may well happen some day which would be good, ( not in my day or yours i think )  Till the people who really run the game make it happen, We have to go with what we have, We are going with what we have, Whether you like it or not,

 

I don't really like this new format, It is still happening.

 

___________________________________________________________________

 

 

Rich men at small clubs merely fund losses to the detriment of clubs who create gains. We do not need them.

 

 

Just your opinion, and may be shared by many others, who knows, Reality is we have them, your or my opinion will affect nothing, so once again we are debating a situation that doesn't exist.

 

A while ago you listed what you called the well documented reasons for the fall of the Bulls, I can't be bothered to traul back for the list but it was the Harris thing, the mismanagement, the loss of fans, Odsal etc, All of which made sense to me,

If they don't manage to get things right, will that then be the fault of these unwanted money men.

 

I see you ignored my comment on the number of overseas players Bradford have fielded in their great days, despite the wonderfull acadamy they had. Didn't bother me , I just enjoyed watching them.

 

I have been happy to swap words with you but i feel we are just going in circles, I think you don't really have an argument, you have a Dream , and i can see that in time it may well come about and would be good for the game, Until it does it remains a Dream, I truely wish the Bulls well, But i refuse to blame their troubles on anyone else.


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#4554 The Parksider

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Posted 08 February 2014 - 08:22 PM

I have been happy to swap words with you but i feel we are just going in circles, I think you don't really have an argument, you have a Dream , and i can see that in time it may well come about and would be good for the game, Until it does it remains a Dream, I truely wish the Bulls well, But i refuse to blame their troubles on anyone else.

 

Yes I've been happy too, I enjoy a good debate so thanks. If my dream is just that then it is strange that you "see that in time it may well come about".

 

We shall see how it goes but for me there is already a strong move to ring fencing Superleague. I don't think the CC clubs accepted an opportunity to grow, develop and become SL clubs. Rather they grabbed at a survival lifeline. Equally I think that what limited opportunity is given to CC clubs and relegated SL clubs to rise to the top, will play out quickly until either they make or break.

 

At that point the strongest 12 will probably be set in stone, I think you can be sure the clubs won't allow Wakefield or Bradford to not be in there. Will Huddersfield be there??? Probably as long as it's a 12 club league and not 10.....



#4555 Lobbygobbler

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Posted 08 February 2014 - 08:52 PM

I come across this style of debate a lot where if the point isn't to someones liking they try to pick at the reasoning, find a problem and declare the whole thing null and void.

It's Fev who are the "non super league club". Now let's see......

Featherstones best crowds in the top division in living memory are 4722....

Nope that doesn't change the overall point. Put the big clubs in SL and back them for maximum real growth.


What was Warringtons best average between 1973 and the start of SL?

#4556 DAZROVER1985

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Posted 08 February 2014 - 08:57 PM

What was Warringtons best average between 1973 and the start of SL?

and in that period featherstone reached 3 challenge cup finals winning 2 and won the league with a few top 4 finishes, yet with low crowds they best erase them from the record books according to parksider

#4557 GIANTSTRIDES

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Posted 08 February 2014 - 11:00 PM

Yes I've been happy too, I enjoy a good debate so thanks. If my dream is just that then it is strange that you "see that in time it may well come about".

 

We shall see how it goes but for me there is already a strong move to ring fencing Superleague. I don't think the CC clubs accepted an opportunity to grow, develop and become SL clubs. Rather they grabbed at a survival lifeline. Equally I think that what limited opportunity is given to CC clubs and relegated SL clubs to rise to the top, will play out quickly until either they make or break.

 

 

 

 

 

Yes I've been happy too, I enjoy a good debate so thanks. If my dream is just that then it is strange that you "see that in time it may well come about".

 

 

Nothing strange about it, I have said our end game is probably the same, I want SL to be the best it can be, It will IMO just take time for it to Get enough top clubs.

 

________________________________________________________________________________

 

 

At that point the strongest 12 will probably be set in stone, I think you can be sure the clubs won't allow Wakefield or Bradford to not be in there. Will Huddersfield be there??? Probably as long as it's a 12 club league and not 10.....

 

 

I don't know who the SL clubs will ultimately be, I Don't really care as long as they are good to watch, are competitive and are finacially sound,  Will Huddersfield be there ?  I honestly don't know, If they meet those standards yes , If not then no they wont.

 

Where we will always disagree i think Is that you believe that the clubs will automatically decide, to divide the money up between the 10 best supported clubs at the turnstiles, I dont agree with that at all, IMO ( Maybe wrongly) They game will become more and more about TV.  That's not to say fans are not needed, or are not important, But you have to agree that SKY's stake in the game is growing.

 

 They are the major income for the game, In years to come it will be the clubs who can deliver who will be the elite, wherever they get their money and players from, and whoever they are.

 

The stronger clubs will be the ones with the extra income from the bigger fan base, and will win most . But whats new.


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#4558 Johnoco

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Posted 08 February 2014 - 11:18 PM

I'm pretty certain Tevita Vaikona was/is a Tongan. Plus even if it was 3 Kiwis (of the apocalypse), that's hardly overwhelming.


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#4559 Terry Mullaney

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Posted 08 February 2014 - 11:35 PM

I come across this style of debate a lot where if the point isn't to someones liking they try to pick at the reasoning, find a problem and declare the whole thing null and void.

It's Fev who are the "non super league club". Now let's see......

Featherstones best crowds in the top division in living memory are 4722....

So what were Leeds averaging at this particular time Parky? It's nearly 20 years since Rovers were in the top flight. How does it have any relevance to what might happen should Rovers join SL sometime in the future or even take the ascendancy in the WMDC area?

Edited by Terry Mullaney, 08 February 2014 - 11:37 PM.

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#4560 Jimmy B

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Posted 09 February 2014 - 12:57 AM

I come across this style of debate a lot where if the point isn't to someones liking they try to pick at the reasoning, find a problem and declare the whole thing null and void.

 

It's Fev who are the "non super league club". Now let's see......

 

Featherstones best crowds in the top division in living memory are 4722....

 

Nope that doesn't change the overall point. Put the big clubs in SL and back them for maximum real growth.

 

Parky, that figure was pre superleague, pre  full time players , pre sky monies,  you, and nobody else have any idea as to what average crowd the Rovers would attract should they ever get into SL.

What average First Division crowd did Wakefield attract immediately prior to there elevation into the so called "elite" professional ranks ?

I'll save you getting your Rothmans out - it was ; -

1994/95    3,438

1993/94    3,822

1992/93    4,505

1991/92    5,022

1991/92    4,848

 

Hardly way out in front of that figure, quoted by you, presumably, as a reason why Rovers could not make it in SL.

How can you assume that the Rovers average gate could not grow as Wakefields have done ?

I repeat you have no idea as what crowd Rovers may attract as a Full time professional outfit - and nobody else has either !


Edited by Jimmy B, 09 February 2014 - 01:00 AM.

Lets not forget, Featherstone Rovers is a RUGBY club.




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