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The never-ending League Restructure debate (Many merged threads)


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#4561 Bob8

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Posted 09 February 2014 - 03:57 AM

Parky, that figure was pre superleague, pre  full time players , pre sky monies,  you, and nobody else have any idea as to what average crowd the Rovers would attract should they ever get into SL.

What average First Division crowd did Wakefield attract immediately prior to there elevation into the so called "elite" professional ranks ?

I'll save you getting your Rothmans out - it was ; -

1994/95    3,438

1993/94    3,822

1992/93    4,505

1991/92    5,022

1991/92    4,848

 

Hardly way out in front of that figure, quoted by you, presumably, as a reason why Rovers could not make it in SL.

How can you assume that the Rovers average gate could not grow as Wakefields have done ?

I repeat you have no idea as what crowd Rovers may attract as a Full time professional outfit - and nobody else has either !

"We could be almost as big as Wakey" is not that strong an argument in the context of what Parksider is discussing.


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#4562 The Parksider

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Posted 09 February 2014 - 08:23 AM

So what were Leeds averaging at this particular time Parky? It's nearly 20 years since Rovers were in the top flight. How does it have any relevance to what might happen should Rovers join SL sometime in the future or even take the ascendancy in the WMDC area?

 

Terry, the bad news is when Featherstone Rovers were breaking 4,000 competing in the top division Leeds were breaking 12,000.  It's not rocket science is it - the bigger the population to draw from the bigger the crowds can be and actually were.

 

Bet you never wished you asked that question Terry?



#4563 The Parksider

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Posted 09 February 2014 - 08:32 AM

Parky, that figure was pre superleague, pre  full time players , pre sky monies,  you, and nobody else have any idea as to what average crowd the Rovers would attract should they ever get into SL.

What average First Division crowd did Wakefield attract immediately prior to there elevation into the so called "elite" professional ranks ?

 

They attracted poor crowds for a City club but with a large catchment area have got up to 8,000 as an average and have put a number of 10,000 crowds in Belle Vue including an 11,000 crowd me and Agbrigg were in.

 

So I've seen all the Wakefield support with my own eyes.

 

Rovers are based in a small town so yes we have a really good idea what their crowds will be. Try looking at small town Widnes or Leigh for likely SL crowds. Ponte are seemingly split between Cas and Rovers, the danger being Rovers 18 years in the championship may have depleted that support in Ponte.

 

Rovers crowds for the big cup games were poor as well and prompted a whole thread on here discussing likely Rovers SL crowds. It started with the idea thousands would flock down from Barnsley to watch Fev, but in time we tended to have a concensus of opinion that about 5,000 average would be a very good estimate IF they competed.

 

The trick is to declare that nobody can have any idea what crowds Rovers would get which is ludicrous and just an attempt to shut down a reality you don't like. We know they wont get nobody turning up, and they won't average 10,000 so let's split the difference?


Edited by The Parksider, 09 February 2014 - 08:34 AM.


#4564 DAZROVER1985

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Posted 09 February 2014 - 08:34 AM

Terry, the bad news is when Featherstone Rovers were breaking 4,000 competing in the top division Leeds were breaking 12,000. It's not rocket science is it - the bigger the population to draw from the bigger the crowds can be and actually were.

Bet you never wished you asked that question Terry?

did that stop rovers winning trophies

#4565 The Parksider

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Posted 09 February 2014 - 08:37 AM

did that stop rovers winning trophies

 

Not at that time. The days when a locally produced team could all stay at the semi pro club.

 

The dice will be loaded against them this time Daz big time.

 

If nahaboo can pump £2,000,000 a year in for 12 years and if Wakefield and Cas collapse you may win the hubcap like Fartown.



#4566 DAZROVER1985

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Posted 09 February 2014 - 08:41 AM

Not at that time. The days when a locally produced team could all stay at the semi pro club.

The dice will be loaded against them this time Daz big time.

If nahaboo can pump £2,000,000 a year in for 12 years and if Wakefield and Cas collapse you may win the hubcap like Fartown.

only time will tell but for me things are definitely looking a bit more optimistic for the future

#4567 Griff

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Posted 09 February 2014 - 09:00 AM

only time will tell but for me things are definitely looking a bit more optimistic for the future

 

"A bit" is the key expression.

 

No doubt, rather like the new league structure, we'll need to get Rovers into the top division to agree who's right.


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#4568 Griff

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Posted 09 February 2014 - 09:04 AM

Announced yesterday

 Just one more meeting to go, then.


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#4569 Terry Mullaney

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Posted 09 February 2014 - 10:34 AM

Terry, the bad news is when Featherstone Rovers were breaking 4,000 competing in the top division Leeds were breaking 12,000. It's not rocket science is it - the bigger the population to draw from the bigger the crowds can be and actually were.

Bet you never wished you asked that question Terry?

Well I asked because I didn't know the answer but I've been in crowds as low as 3000 -7000 at Headingley so it hasn't always been rosey has it? In fact if they were almost relegated one year but for Fev beating Oldham. I also remember The iconic Odsal when little more than 300 were in attendance for a first team game. Times and fortunes change.

Let's see what Wakey's crowds are this season now that they aren't doing half price season tickets, forged season tickets and freebies. They've already said the 5300 stadium capacity will be adequate for the first few home games.

Using Rovers' cup tie crowds to assess their league potential is ludicrous when even the big guns can't pull them in for such games. Why should Rovers in SL be deemed to only have the potential to attract a few hundred more than they did 20 ago for top flight rugby when the overall trend since SL evolved suggests much greater? Seems a flawed argument to my mind.

We're back to P&R with a system which the RFL believe will capture the imagination of RL lovers old and new. Let's give it a chance, you might just be surprised at the outcome.

Edited by Terry Mullaney, 09 February 2014 - 11:11 AM.

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#4570 Griff

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Posted 09 February 2014 - 10:47 AM

We're back to P&R ......

 

Well, that's a big assumption.


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#4571 Terry Mullaney

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Posted 09 February 2014 - 10:51 AM

Well, that's a big assumption.


As I said though Griff, let's give it a chance.
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#4572 The Parksider

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Posted 09 February 2014 - 11:12 AM

Well I asked because I didn't know the answer but I've been in crowds as low as 3000 -7000 at Headingley so it hasn't always been rosey has it?

 

I suppose you've been in crowds of 1,900 at POR in 1993 and 890 in 2006 too??

 

So it's all relative.

 

My point remains that to maximise the number of fans paying to attend RL games the game needs to showcase where the crowds have the biggest potential, and remove distractions.

 

It's a simple point, just divvying up SKY money every year is not investment, yet we maybe all agree the game needs investment.



#4573 The Parksider

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Posted 09 February 2014 - 11:14 AM

We're back to P&R with a system which the RFL believe will capture the imagination of RL lovers old and new.

 

"WILL" yes Terry it will be fascinating in the coming weeks the fans response. Get your book of excuses ready mate!!



#4574 Griff

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Posted 09 February 2014 - 11:17 AM

As I said though Griff, let's give it a chance.

 

Suppose we'll have to.


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#4575 DAZROVER1985

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Posted 09 February 2014 - 11:33 AM

"WILL" yes Terry it will be fascinating in the coming weeks the fans response. Get your book of excuses ready mate!!

why are fev starting the season in super league

#4576 Terry Mullaney

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Posted 09 February 2014 - 12:01 PM

"WILL" yes Terry it will be fascinating in the coming weeks the fans response. Get your book of excuses ready mate!!


I don't go for excuses Parky, gets you nowhere. Licensing failed spectacularly as the 'dinosaurs' predicted and if the new 2015 system fails as the 'nouveau dinosaurs' predict then I'd expect the RFL to try something else.

Edited by Terry Mullaney, 09 February 2014 - 12:04 PM.

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#4577 GIANTSTRIDES

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Posted 09 February 2014 - 12:07 PM

I'm pretty certain Tevita Vaikona was/is a Tongan. Plus even if it was 3 Kiwis (of the apocalypse), that's hardly overwhelming.

 

You are very probably right and the truth is i am not a stats man.

 

I don't think Bradford have been any better of worse than any other club for importing players, And i don't care anyway. I just want to watch the game as good as it can be, and Bradford were very good to watch.

 

I don't believe for one minute that they will not survive and I'll be happy about that, I do think they will have a struggle with Odsal, and for that reason i don't think they will get to the level say of Wigan and Leeds as a club.

 

That doesn't mean they can't be top on the field again. The point i was trying to make at the time was, That teams who can't get top crowds, are not banned from winning things.

 

If MK is prepared to put in enough money Salford could win as much as anybody, whether they have a crowd or not, So could Fev, So could the Giants, HKR anybody. If you have enough money you can get along with smaller crowds. If or when the Money men stop for whatever reason, then the club will more than likely fold, But  they may well have had a great 10 years by then and been a terrific team to watch. I don't see how stopping them being there in the first place helps League at all.

 

Would it have been better to have never had those 10 years because they needed money men to subsidize them, not for me. Nobody can take Bradfords great years away, however it all ended.

 

I know this has gone a bit off your post, sorry about that but it is by way of trying to explain why i may have been seen to be attacking the Bulls,  I want the Bulls to survive, and i am pretty sure they will. I think they will have a far better time if they can depart Odsal, but these things are easier said than done, Either way i wish them well.


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#4578 The Parksider

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Posted 09 February 2014 - 01:48 PM

why are fev starting the season in super league

 

No, they are in the exciting new world of P & R. I am told licensing caused the decline of Championship clubs (even though the facts are they declined more under P & R) so now we have P & R fans will flock back at both levels.



#4579 Terry Mullaney

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Posted 09 February 2014 - 01:55 PM

No, they are in the exciting new world of P & R. I am told licensing caused the decline of Championship clubs (even though the facts are they declined more under P & R) so now we have P & R fans will flock back at both levels.


We only have relegation this season Parky. The effect, or not, on attendances won't be truly evident until 2015, although I do expect Rovers attendances to increase considerably yet again this year

Edited by Terry Mullaney, 09 February 2014 - 01:56 PM.

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#4580 The Parksider

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Posted 09 February 2014 - 02:06 PM

We only have relegation this season Parky. The effect, or not, on attendances won't be truly evident until 2015, although I do expect Rovers attendances to increase considerably yet again this year

 

I thought you were getting your excuses out early there Terry!!

 

Anyway you've put your neck on the block 2403 to beat...............






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