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The never-ending League Restructure debate (Many merged threads)


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#861 The Parksider

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 10:10 AM

The grade A clubs would be grade A without licencing. There are no grade C clubs now grade A so how has it not failed utterly?


We seem hung up on what exactly failed.

Would licensing work for say a fifth division in soccer?

Did Licensing deliver by giving clubs a sustained period in which to grow - was that it's remit?

Wasn't it the clubs who failed to grow?

Was licensing the wrong choice?

Was the right choice to stay with P & R?

Is hindsight a wonderful thing??

Your thoughts?

#862 Cake Tiger

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 11:35 AM

We seem hung up on what exactly failed.

Would licensing work for say a fifth division in soccer?

Did Licensing deliver by giving clubs a sustained period in which to grow - was that it's remit?

Wasn't it the clubs who failed to grow?

Was licensing the wrong choice?

Was the right choice to stay with P & R?

Is hindsight a wonderful thing??

Your thoughts?



#863 Ackroman

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 11:40 AM

We seem hung up on what exactly failed.

Would licensing work for say a fifth division in soccer?

Did Licensing deliver by giving clubs a sustained period in which to grow - was that it's remit?

Wasn't it the clubs who failed to grow?

Was licensing the wrong choice?

Was the right choice to stay with P & R?

Is hindsight a wonderful thing??

Your thoughts?

 

I always thought licencing was the wrong choice and it's a simple answer. 

 

Sports generally belonged to the people in this country, where licencing/franchising works is when you can translate the level of control/interest by the people to a TV audience and new markets. What we have found is that RL via a licenced SL just hasn't achieved that. No new investment, no new growth, the game still relies on the people, hence what seems to be a U-turn. Add in the challenges in recent times and it makes licencing look like a disaster. It got no where near any level of sustainability and the cracks appeared within months.

 

Also licences need to be sustained for a long period, but without investment and a plan for investment at key stages, they will fail. 3 years isn't enough, one platform isn't enough, one market isn't enough. Therefore licencing was always going to fail because the figures didn't add up. The investments that were made were always from within, i.e more home games, or a larger pool of clubs for the play-offs, or more money from the chairmen etc etc etc

 

 

To offer a scenario where licencing exists all but in name is football. In the early 90's the transition was easy. The premier league became a game for TV, with new markets, and different platforms. it no longer belongs to the people. The premier league doesn't even need them. The fans have doggedly hung in their because they matter to the players and coaches but to be frank, they're being ripped off royally.



#864 roytonyed

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 12:14 PM

Coming soon: Back to winter, unlimited tackles and proper scrums.

If only.



#865 JohnM

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 12:58 PM

Agreed..bring it on....striking at the PTB, no gumshields, no  interchanges, win money only, cinder terraces and wooden stands, blocked outside WCs, cauliflower ears,  refs wearing blazers on-field.   Oh how I miss those great days.



#866 The Parksider

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 01:09 PM

I always thought licencing was the wrong choice and it's a simple answer. 

 

Sports generally belonged to the people in this country, where licencing/franchising works is when you can translate the level of control/interest by the people to a TV audience and new markets. What we have found is that RL via a licenced SL just hasn't achieved that. No new investment, no new growth, the game still relies on the people, hence what seems to be a U-turn. Add in the challenges in recent times and it makes licencing look like a disaster. It got no where near any level of sustainability and the cracks appeared within months.

 

Also licences need to be sustained for a long period, but without investment and a plan for investment at key stages, they will fail. 3 years isn't enough, one platform isn't enough, one market isn't enough. Therefore licencing was always going to fail because the figures didn't add up. The investments that were made were always from within, i.e more home games, or a larger pool of clubs for the play-offs, or more money from the chairmen etc etc etc

 

 

To offer a scenario where licencing exists all but in name is football. In the early 90's the transition was easy. The premier league became a game for TV, with new markets, and different platforms. it no longer belongs to the people. The premier league doesn't even need them. The fans have doggedly hung in their because they matter to the players and coaches but to be frank, they're being ripped off royally.

 

Enjoyed that......



#867 Methven Hornet

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 02:41 PM

Agreed..bring it on....striking at the PTB, no gumshields, no  interchanges, win money only, cinder terraces and wooden stands, blocked outside WCs, cauliflower ears,  refs wearing blazers on-field.   Oh how I miss those great days.

 

WCs? **** behind the stand!

And the old Athletic Grounds could have done with a few cinders in the mud-filled car parks on the approach to the ground.


"There are now more pandas in Scotland than Tory MPs."

#868 GeordieSaint

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 02:54 PM

Licensing was introduced under Lewis' stewardship. Clubcall is indeed one of Wood's stunning innovations.

 

Lewis introduced the idea of licensing in 2005. Wood appointed Chief Executive in Nov 2007 implemented that idea in conjunction with the clubs. People tend to forget that...


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#869 Chronicler of Chiswick

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 03:31 PM

WCs? **** behind the stand!

And the old Athletic Grounds could have done with a few cinders in the mud-filled car parks on the approach to the ground.

And don't forget the lumps of rust falling from what was left of the grandstand roof into our luke-warm (if we were lucky) Bovrils! At least we didn't get anaemia.



#870 Southerner

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 08:14 PM

Guys, I've just seen the Nigel Wood interview on Boots N All, which was interesting. I think it's clear that he's pushing for the three-8's, what I don't understand is what will happen to the clubs accumulated points once the leagues split into 3? (Sorry if this has been asked before). Will the clubs simply restart at zero or will their points be taken to the new league?

#871 Lobbygobbler

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 08:20 PM

Guys, I've just seen the Nigel Wood interview on Boots N All, which was interesting. I think it's clear that he's pushing for the three-8's, what I don't understand is what will happen to the clubs accumulated points once the leagues split into 3? (Sorry if this has been asked before). Will the clubs simply restart at zero or will their points be taken to the new league?


Surely its (quite rightly) wiped clean?

#872 GeordieSaint

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 08:22 PM

Surely its (quite rightly) wiped clean?

 

I believe it is for the middle tier, but not for the other two.


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#873 Southerner

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 08:45 PM

I believe it is for the middle tier, but not for the other two.

Cheers. That makes sense! So 4 teams from SL would be dragged into the middle tier along with the best 4 from the Championship, which would currently mean Broncos, Salford, Widnes, Castleford, Featherstone, Sheffield, Halifax and Leigh. So my next question is how would they decide promotion from this tier into SL for the following year ie surely it wouldn't be the top 4 would it?

#874 Keith T

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 09:22 PM

Cheers. That makes sense! So 4 teams from SL would be dragged into the middle tier along with the best 4 from the Championship, which would currently mean Broncos, Salford, Widnes, Castleford, Featherstone, Sheffield, Halifax and Leigh. So my next question is how would they decide promotion from this tier into SL for the following year ie surely it wouldn't be the top 4 would it?


Well I think the theory is that they each play each other just once giving them all 7 games. The problem then is to decide which clubs get 4 home games and which clubs get 4 away games. This on top of the total imbalance between the 4 SL clubs and the 4 Championship clubs over salary caps, funding from Sky or Central funds, the discrepancy in the number of foreign national players allowed for each league. I would like to hear what the benefits are for Championship clubs that are not in the top four?

I remember when .............................

"It is impossible not to feel a twinge of sympathy for Workington Town, the fall guys this season for the Super League's determination to retain it's European dimension, in the shape of Paris. While the French have had every assistance to survive, the importance of having a flagship in a heartland area like West Cumbria has been conveniently forgotten." - Dave Hadfield - Independent 25th August 1996.


#875 Spidey

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 09:45 PM

I still can't get my head round what the bottom eight are actually playing for apart from avoiding bottom an therefore you'd assume relegation into champ 1.

Normally in a comp you compete to be champions. Not just to avoid being last.

#876 Lobbygobbler

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 09:50 PM

Cheers. That makes sense! So 4 teams from SL would be dragged into the middle tier along with the best 4 from the Championship, which would currently mean Broncos, Salford, Widnes, Castleford, Featherstone, Sheffield, Halifax and Leigh. So my next question is how would they decide promotion from this tier into SL for the following year ie surely it wouldn't be the top 4 would it?


Why not the top four? Obvious to me

#877 Southerner

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 09:54 PM

Why not the top four? Obvious to me

That could mean 4 SL teams relegated in one season. That would certainly make the middle tier interesting along with the top tier for normal reasons but not sure of the significance of the third tier!

#878 Ponterover

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 09:56 PM

 I would like to hear what the benefits are for Championship clubs that are not in the top four?

 

There's a good article in League Weekly this week, that shows the proposed distribution of monies and they're based on league position, plenty for the clubs outside the top 4 to play for.



#879 nadera78

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Posted 19 July 2013 - 08:00 AM

That could mean 4 SL teams relegated in one season. That would certainly make the middle tier interesting along with the top tier for normal reasons but not sure of the significance of the third tier!

You want to see what will happen when the 4 SL teams meet the 4 Championship teams? Sheffield v London was last week.

 

The only remote chance the 3x8 system has of working is if all the clubs get the same funding - and there isn't enough money in the game to do that. If there was we wouldn't need this ridiculous format.


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#880 Ponterover

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Posted 19 July 2013 - 08:20 AM

You want to see what will happen when the 4 SL teams meet the 4 Championship teams? Sheffield v London was last week.

 

 

 

Except it won't

 

The "new" championship will look nothing like the current one.  For starters there will be two ex-Super League clubs, plus there is more money from the RFL and the bigger clubs like Fax, Fev, Leigh and maybe Sheffield will be able to move towards a more full time environment.

 

You're comparing apples and oranges.






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