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The never-ending League Restructure debate (Many merged threads)


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#921 Spidey

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 06:47 AM

The two ex-SL sides, Fev and Fax. Possibly others


Think I missed the season when Fev were in Super League

#922 DAZROVER1985

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 07:55 AM

Think I missed the season when Fev were in Super League

think he means the two sides that will be demoted plus fev and fax

#923 Northern Sol

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 08:28 AM

With living costs far higher in London than Wigan, London have essentially been operating on 50% of the salary cap compared to Northern clubs.

That's also connected to them having a turnover that's less than 50% of sides like Wigan.



#924 RugbyLeagueGeek

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 11:27 AM

Given that there has been the suggestion from some quarters citing cricket as an exponent of P&R, here's an interesting perspective on domestic cricket in this country: http://www.telegraph...e-doldrums.html



#925 Padge

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 06:09 PM

With living costs far higher in London than Wigan, London have essentially been operating on 50% of the salary cap compared to Northern clubs.

London, along with Catalan, automatically get the Salary Cap international weighting.

 

Not saying it does London a lot of good but it is taken into consideration.



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#926 Padge

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 06:12 PM

Given that there has been the suggestion from some quarters citing cricket as an exponent of P&R, here's an interesting perspective on domestic cricket in this country: http://www.telegraph...e-doldrums.html

 

Its all lies, only RL has problems.



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#927 RugbyLeagueGeek

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 10:36 PM

London, along with Catalan, automatically get the Salary Cap international weighting.

 

Not saying it does London a lot of good but it is taken into consideration.

Yes but this is still only 10%, whereas living costs are, relatively speaking, far higher.


Edited by RugbyLeagueGeek, 20 July 2013 - 10:36 PM.


#928 The Parksider

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 08:22 AM

Given that there has been the suggestion from some quarters citing cricket as an exponent of P&R, here's an interesting perspective on domestic cricket in this country: http://www.telegraph...e-doldrums.html

 

Very interesting that. However I have no doubt that to open up the game to a P & R system will be highly interesting what with a top eight place to compete for, SL survival to compete for, promotion to SL to compete for and a chance to play a higher level if your a lower CC club to play for. In terms of being exciting and interesting for the fans it will. It's a no brainer IMHO.

 

How many paying fans will click the turnstyles is another matter. CC crowds fell from 2500 to 1800 under P & R and under licensing fell further to 1100. Superleague crowds have largely held up but the clubs getting a kicking has seen the crowds at the foot of SL drop.

 

RL fans seem to like top class RL and don't like losers. IMHO it remains to be see whether "SL2" reverses the trend for fans to abandon second tier RL, and whether the bottom four SL losers and winning second tier clubs help each other pull bumper gates in the play off phase.


Edited by The Parksider, 21 July 2013 - 08:26 AM.


#929 Lobbygobbler

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 10:55 AM

Very interesting that. However I have no doubt that to open up the game to a P & R system will be highly interesting what with a top eight place to compete for, SL survival to compete for, promotion to SL to compete for and a chance to play a higher level if your a lower CC club to play for. In terms of being exciting and interesting for the fans it will. It's a no brainer IMHO.

How many paying fans will click the turnstyles is another matter. CC crowds fell from 2500 to 1800 under P & R and under licensing fell further to 1100. Superleague crowds have largely held up but the clubs getting a kicking has seen the crowds at the foot of SL drop.

RL fans seem to like top class RL and don't like losers. IMHO it remains to be see whether "SL2" reverses the trend for fans to abandon second tier RL, and whether the bottom four SL losers and winning second tier clubs help each other pull bumper gates in the play off phase.


Good post Parky. I would tend to agree that perhaps people in RL town prefer winners. This maybe the influence of fans of big local soccer teams like Man U, who live in the same town (and may have also followed the rugby team when successful).

I think the proposed P&R models are better than the staid 1up 1down model (which makes relegation a nightmare) or licensing, so hopefully we'll see a jump in attendances. You may have noted how many Leigh took yesterday to the NRC, and the likes of Cru will draw big gates too

#930 Spidey

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 11:01 AM

You may have noted how many Leigh took yesterday to the NRC, and the likes of Cru will draw big gates too


I don't think 4k for a final is that much really.

#931 Ponterover

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 11:08 AM

I don't think 4k for a final is that much really.

 

I think the low crowd has plenty to do with the location.

 

When it was decided to ditch Blackpool, it was entirely predictable that this would happen.

 

Not disrespect to Halifax, but it's not exactly a great day out (except for the excellent Eureka! museum).



#932 Lobbygobbler

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 11:17 AM

I don't think 4k for a final is that much really.


Agreed but that was due to a low turnout from Sheffield (the Skolars turnout was understandable and would have been higher if played at Donny or Wire - a few of us couldnt go due to the last train being tok early).

It looked like Leigh took significantly more to Halifax for a minor final, than Huddersfield took to Wire for a winnable major QF

#933 thundergaz

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 11:30 AM

I don't think 4k for a final is that much really.


Yes spot on. But you have fax , Leigh and us who are the best supported teams in league by a country mile. So if one of those three get to a final without one of the other two you can guarantee the crowd would be very one sided/low. For a RL fan of one of those 3 clubs drawing the eagles in a final is a nightmare as they are one of the worst supported clubs in the champ and the atmosphere is terrible.

Edited by thundergaz, 21 July 2013 - 11:30 AM.


#934 Griff

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 02:41 PM

Good post Parky. I would tend to agree that perhaps people in RL town prefer winners. This maybe the influence of fans of big local soccer teams like Man U, who live in the same town (and may have also followed the rugby team when successful).

I think the proposed P&R models are better than the staid 1up 1down model (which makes relegation a nightmare) or licensing, so hopefully we'll see a jump in attendances. You may have noted how many Leigh took yesterday to the NRC, and the likes of Cru will draw big gates too


A lot of folk on a one-off day out. League attendances will be back to normal soon.
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#935 Lobbygobbler

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 03:30 PM

A lot of folk on a one-off day out. League attendances will be back to normal soon.


Of course they will as there is feck all to play for until P&R returns in 2015. Its quite suprising how people just dont get this

#936 RSN

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 04:03 PM

Good post Parky. I would tend to agree that perhaps people in RL town prefer winners. This maybe the influence of fans of big local soccer teams like Man U, who live in the same town (and may have also followed the rugby team when successful).

I think the proposed P&R models are better than the staid 1up 1down model (which makes relegation a nightmare) or licensing, so hopefully we'll see a jump in attendances. You may have noted how many Leigh took yesterday to the NRC, and the likes of Cru will draw big gates too


It's obvious you get fans through the gate if your winning. I'd say about a third of your support would attend every game if you lost all your games in a season.

The main problem with P and R is you build up a fan support by winning lots of games in the Championship and then get to SL and lose most games and hence lose most of this support and go bust. My problem with licensing is that you win most your games build up support and eventually your fan base gets bored as there is a ceiling above your head.

You seem incapable to be able to comprehend the P and R point.

#937 Griff

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 06:04 PM

Of course they will as there is feck all to play for until P&R returns in 2015. Its quite suprising how people just dont get this


So why did people turn out yesterday ? Leigh were promoted to ...... what ?

It's quite surprising how people just don't get this.
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#938 The Parksider

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 06:59 PM

The main problem with P and R is you build up a fan support by winning lots of games in the Championship and then get to SL and lose most games and hence lose most of this support and go bust.

 

Here's the stats to help.

 

There were nine promotions before licensing, Firstly note P & R "with standards" stifles P & R.

 

The average stats for a promoted club were that they won 17 out of 21 championship games and had crowds of 3,900.

 

Once promoted they struggled and lost an average of 18 out of 26 games.

 

But playing in the top tier of "Superleague" saw their crowds rise to an average of 5,800

 

They didn't lose "most of their support" indeed they increased support by 50%

 

But the problem was that that increase still left the promoted clubs with a massive monetary shortfall operating professionally despite the SKY money.

 

That led to severe financial difficulties except where a rich chairmen was in place to bridge that gap.

 

P & R is about Yo-Yoing unless the club goes up with a rich chairman.



#939 Lobbygobbler

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 07:03 PM

So why did people turn out yesterday ? Leigh were promoted to ...... what ?

It's quite surprising how people just don't get this.


A lot turned out but a lot didnt - inc. me. There wasnt enough at stake for me justify an overnight stay.

If promotion had been at stake OR a Wembley final, I would have.

I'm obviously glad we won, and the small prize money will be welcome, but at the end of the day it is a only minor cup. I'm old enough to see us win the league and be the best in the land. Again though the excellent turn out shows how many fans we'd get for something like a CC semi

#940 RSN

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 07:03 PM

Here's the stats to help.

There were nine promotions before licensing, Firstly note P & R "with standards" stifles P & R.

The average stats for a promoted club were that they won 17 out of 21 championship games and had crowds of 3,900.

Once promoted they struggled and lost an average of 18 out of 26 games.

But playing in the top tier of "Superleague" saw their crowds rise to an average of 5,800

They didn't lose "most of their support" indeed they increased support by 50%

But the problem was that that increase still left the promoted clubs with a massive monetary shortfall operating professionally despite the SKY money.

That led to severe financial difficulties except where a rich chairmen was in place to bridge that gap.

P & R is about Yo-Yoing unless the club goes up with a rich chairman.


Maybe 'lose most of their support' is incorrect as the stats you provided suggest.

'Support doesn't increase as much as expected or doesn't increase enough to compete' is probably more correct.




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