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The never-ending League Restructure debate (Many merged threads)


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#1461 Wellsy4HullFC

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Posted 16 August 2013 - 10:17 AM

IMO you either have a prestigious playoffs which determines the winner or you have a prestigious league which determines the winner. I'm not sure that you can have both.

Clubs and fans will know that the big prize is still the Grand Final, so you're taking a big risk in hoping that the league leaders shield will provide motivation to the clubs and the fans guaranteed to make the 8. If it didn't work, then we could have a real damp squib of a season for 22 rounds amongst the top clubs. I think the better balance is to continue the points into the second part. We could also see teams making the 8 comfortably but not being in contention and then resting their players in preparation for the second part of the season.

Your point about the 7th and 8th clubs is valid, and to be fair I think the whole system is flawed but if it has to be done I'd rather risk these having little to play in some seasons for than our best clubs.

To be honest, I think you underestimate how much teams want to be the league leaders. Huddersfield are really going for it. I know Wigan and Wire have in the past as well. It is a meaningful trophy at the end of the day, just not the big one.

I think the battle for top spot is definitely worth watching.
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#1462 keighley

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Posted 16 August 2013 - 01:24 PM

Under this system, there would never be a game like the one last night when Widnes went to Warrington.an short for half the match, and still knocked off the top dwelling Wolves.

 

Under this system Widnes would be in the middle eight, there would be no derby with Warrington and no upset.

 

I think two divisions with p and r is far superior.



#1463 Pottsy

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Posted 16 August 2013 - 02:06 PM


I think two divisions with p and r is far superior.


I'm inclined to agree but more because it would at least allow the funding for all 20 clubs to be fully pro.

#1464 Wellsy4HullFC

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Posted 16 August 2013 - 02:27 PM

Under this system, there would never be a game like the one last night when Widnes went to Warrington.an short for half the match, and still knocked off the top dwelling Wolves.

Under this system Widnes would be in the middle eight, there would be no derby with Warrington and no upset.

I think two divisions with p and r is far superior.

Eh?

Why wouldn't there be a derby with Warrington and Widnes?
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#1465 keighley

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Posted 16 August 2013 - 02:42 PM

Eh?

Why wouldn't there be a derby with Warrington and Widnes?

 

Not at this stage of the season. Widnes would have qualified for the middle eight and Warrington the top eight and the fixture would not have taken place.



#1466 matt newsholme

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Posted 16 August 2013 - 04:10 PM

If widnes started season in SL1 then fixture would have taken place. Current format under discussion is for SL1 teams to play each other home and away before the split.

#1467 a.n Other

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Posted 16 August 2013 - 04:25 PM

If widnes started season in SL1 then fixture would have taken place. Current format under discussion is for SL1 teams to play each other home and away before the split.

And in addition to this, Widnes may have had to win to stay in the top 8. Much much more to play for.

#1468 Wellsy4HullFC

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Posted 16 August 2013 - 05:13 PM

Not at this stage of the season. Widnes would have qualified for the middle eight and Warrington the top eight and the fixture would not have taken place.

It would have taken place, just earlier.
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#1469 Maximus Decimus

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Posted 16 August 2013 - 06:59 PM

To be honest, I think you underestimate how much teams want to be the league leaders. Huddersfield are really going for it. I know Wigan and Wire have in the past as well. It is a meaningful trophy at the end of the day, just not the big one.

I think the battle for top spot is definitely worth watching.


I'm not sure it could sustain a whole 22 round set of games when it was still classed as a secondary achievement. I'm usually quite good at remembering stats and I could probably give a good stab at naming all the Grand Final winners and the Challenge Cup winners since the early 80's. I'd have to look up the LLS for the last 3 years though, I think most view it as very secondary. You could always try and make the competition more prestigious by making it a bigger prize but then you take the risk of this initial stage being seen as the real prize with the playoffs becoming like the old Premiership.

As I said earlier, another problem would be the clubs that might start resting players in anticipation of the 2nd part of the year. Currently the Rhinos, Saints, Dragons and Hull are guaranteed safety at this stage without being able to challenge, so they would inevitably start resting star players ready for the season part two. This would give them an advantage over the top clubs and be unfair on clubs that played them and lost when they put out stronger sides.

Edited by Maximus Decimus, 16 August 2013 - 07:02 PM.


#1470 Wellsy4HullFC

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 08:32 AM

I'm not sure it could sustain a whole 22 round set of games when it was still classed as a secondary achievement. I'm usually quite good at remembering stats and I could probably give a good stab at naming all the Grand Final winners and the Challenge Cup winners since the early 80's. I'd have to look up the LLS for the last 3 years though, I think most view it as very secondary.

It's not the big one, but ask Wigan, Warrington or Huddersfield if they think it means nothing. Three sides that (will) have picked it up in the last four years. Leeds in 2009 also wanted to make a point if winning it IIRC.

You could always try and make the competition more prestigious by making it a bigger prize but then you take the risk of this initial stage being seen as the real prize with the playoffs becoming like the old Premiership.

I think just a cash incentive would be enough.
The prize for winning the play-offs is the label of champions, a shot in the WCC and a cash prize.

The prize for topping the regular season should be the LLS, a cash prize and an easier run in the play-offs. With the play-offs changing to a round robin, perhaps more home games (since it's an odd number) and against the bigger teams?

I said earlier, another problem would be the clubs that might start resting players in anticipation of the 2nd part of the year. Currently the Rhinos, Saints, Dragons and Hull are guaranteed safety at this stage without being able to challenge, so they would inevitably start resting star players ready for the season part two. This would give them an advantage over the top clubs and be unfair on clubs that played them and lost when they put out stronger sides.

This can happen in any league format though. What do Saints, Leeds, Widnes and Castleford have to play for? Or Bradford and Wakefield? Wigan had been resting players when they were clear at the top. Warrington have been rotating. It just happens in a league system.

Teams that want to win all the trophies don't have that luxury. But if they win them all that's what makes them legendary teams. Bradford (2003) and Saints (2006) are the only sides I can think of that have done the treble.

Call me idealistic, but I'd say I'm being more optimistic. Most of your arguments against can apply to the others argue formats.
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#1471 Pottsy

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 08:43 AM

Like it or not (and personally I'd prefer two fully funded, fully professional leagues of ten) it's quite clear that this new structure will be in place come 2015.

Rather than pointing out the apparent flaws it'd be better to focus on tweaking things to get the system as good as it can be (ie, figuring out a way to reward those teams who finish further up the table after 22 rounds).

#1472 The Parksider

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Posted 18 August 2013 - 07:32 PM

I'm inclined to agree but more because it would at least allow the funding for all 20 clubs to be fully pro.

 

Still don't get this. They are struggling to have 12 professional clubs???

 

Give me some figures?



#1473 Maximus Decimus

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Posted 18 August 2013 - 08:12 PM

It's not the big one, but ask Wigan, Warrington or Huddersfield if they think it means nothing. Three sides that (will) have picked it up in the last four years. Leeds in 2009 also wanted to make a point if winning it IIRC.

I think just a cash incentive would be enough.
The prize for winning the play-offs is the label of champions, a shot in the WCC and a cash prize.

The prize for topping the regular season should be the LLS, a cash prize and an easier run in the play-offs. With the play-offs changing to a round robin, perhaps more home games (since it's an odd number) and against the bigger teams?

This can happen in any league format though. What do Saints, Leeds, Widnes and Castleford have to play for? Or Bradford and Wakefield? Wigan had been resting players when they were clear at the top. Warrington have been rotating. It just happens in a league system.

Teams that want to win all the trophies don't have that luxury. But if they win them all that's what makes them legendary teams. Bradford (2003) and Saints (2006) are the only sides I can think of that have done the treble.

Call me idealistic, but I'd say I'm being more optimistic. Most of your arguments against can apply to the others argue formats.


There is a difference between this system and other formats. Currently, teams are still playing for positions as theoretically the higher up you finish the better chance you have. Hull KR can still finish 5th or 8th. Also, if Warrington were so desperate to win the LLS, surely they wouldn't be resting players? They won't be resting them come playoff time.

The top 8 is basically a resetting of the season. It's not like saying what do Widnes, Cas etc have to play for because the important part of the season would completely reset. It would be in their interests to be as injury free as possible for this 2nd part. For fans also they would know that league position means absolutely nothing apart from top so what happens when a team runs away with it? It's not like football where a position defines how good a season you've had, as long as you're top 8 then the season resets and that is where it would really matter.

Optimism and idealism has a fine line and even optimism doesn't guarantee success. WC2000 and the WCC 1997 were clearly organised by optimistic and ambitious people but they ignored obvious problems that they hoped would go away. I think 3x8 falls into this category.

#1474 The Parksider

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 05:29 AM

I'm not convinced that the middle division will be competitive, though things have already changed on the financial side and I'd be prepared to give it a go.  I will, however, be saying "I told you so" if it isn't competitive.

 

The third league of eight seems utterly pointless for the top teams in it.  It's quite likely that they'll already be safe from relegation at the outset.  This will be a huge anticlimax to their season and won't help their season ticket sales for the following season.

 

Gotta give 3 x 8 a go for me otherwise if they don't it will be hailed for years to come as the "missed opportunity" to revitalise the game, attract heavy private finance, professionalise 24 clubs, and get half the country watching and playing RL.

 

Shuffle the darn deckchairs, it won't kill the game IMHO.

 

As for the third tier do you really think RFL/SLE have looked beyond the needs of the top sixteen/seventeen clubs? That would be a sea change?



#1475 Griff

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 08:33 AM

Rugby League always gets it wrong, Parky. That's why changes are needed every ten minutes.

 

The classic example is promoting four, relegating none last year just so that we have the problem of how to eliminate four (maybe five) teams from Division 2 next year.


Edited by Griff, 19 August 2013 - 08:33 AM.

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#1476 THE RED ROOSTER

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 06:50 PM

Taking up the cause of expansion, if as Gareth Walker of LPL pointed out on Super League Backchat. The RFL's "whole game solution" involves going from 37 Pro and semi-Pro clubs down to 24 and given the London Broncos probable demise. should not the following clubs be automatically included in the second Tier :

 

London Skolars

Toulouse (if not replacing London Broncos)

Hemel Stags

North Wales Crusaders

 

Not forgetting that Sheffield - who are an expansion club - would be there on merit plus the two dropping out of Super League. That would leave five / six spaces for the strongest "heartland" clubs. 

 

Now whilst the RFL plans for the lower tiers of the game are shrouded in smoke and mirrors, would this not make more sense for the future viability of the game


I am an oil trader and successful at that but, but marketing, finance, business management, human resources etc are not my strengths


 

 

David Hughes to Ian Lenagan Page 134 - A Pastel Revolution - Fletcher and Gordas - 2006

 

Being an outsider, it is easiest to see what is wrong with the sport. It's a fantastic sport that has been undersold and under-marketed  because people who run it probably want to keep it the way it is

 

 

Dr Marwan Koukash to Joanthan Lieu. Sunday Telegraph 9th March 2014

 

 


#1477 thundergaz

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 06:58 PM

Taking up the cause of expansion, if as Gareth Walker of LPL pointed out on Super League Backchat. The RFL's "whole game solution" involves going from 37 Pro and semi-Pro clubs down to 24 and given the London Broncos probable demise. should not the following clubs be automatically included in the second Tier :

London Skolars
Toulouse (if not replacing London Broncos)
Hemel Stags
North Wales Crusaders

Not forgetting that Sheffield - who are an expansion club - would be there on merit plus the two dropping out of Super League. That would leave five / six spaces for the strongest "heartland" clubs.

Now whilst the RFL plans for the lower tiers of the game are shrouded in smoke and mirrors, would this not make more sense for the future viability of the game

There is better teams currently in the championship than them that would miss out. Also you talk about expansion but what about Cumbria? Their is 3 teams in the champ at this present time and they are all better than the four teams you have mentioned. I'm all for expansion but it as to be earned not just thrown in like Paris/crusaders were.

Edited by thundergaz, 19 August 2013 - 06:59 PM.


#1478 Ponterover

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 08:58 PM

Taking up the cause of expansion, if as Gareth Walker of LPL pointed out on Super League Backchat. The RFL's "whole game solution" involves going from 37 Pro and semi-Pro clubs down to 24 and given the London Broncos probable demise. should not the following clubs be automatically included in the second Tier :

 

London Skolars

Toulouse (if not replacing London Broncos)

Hemel Stags

North Wales Crusaders

 

Not forgetting that Sheffield - who are an expansion club - would be there on merit plus the two dropping out of Super League. That would leave five / six spaces for the strongest "heartland" clubs. 

 

Now whilst the RFL plans for the lower tiers of the game are shrouded in smoke and mirrors, would this not make more sense for the future viability of the game

 

No.  Artificially placing teams at a level that is currently beyond them has been proved time and again to be doomed to failure.  Paris, Gateshead, Celtic Crusdaders and sadly now London are 4 casualties too many.

 

With P&R these teams will find their level and have an opportunity to grow.

 

There is an argument to include Toulouse in SL2 from the start, but they are not exactly new, or expansion.  They have a firm base already.



#1479 Northern Sol

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 11:46 PM

Agreed.

Crusaders may well be there on merit. The same for Toulouse.

But for Skolars or Hemel, it would be too much, too soon. No need to throw away their promise.

#1480 keighley

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 11:51 PM

Gotta give 3 x 8 a go for me otherwise if they don't it will be hailed for years to come as the "missed opportunity" to revitalise the game, attract heavy private finance, professionalise 24 clubs, and get half the country watching and playing RL.

 

Shuffle the darn deckchairs, it won't kill the game IMHO.

 

As for the third tier do you really think RFL/SLE have looked beyond the needs of the top sixteen/seventeen clubs? That would be a sea change?

 

indeed it would but a change that is long overdue.






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