Jump to content


RUGBY LEAGUE WORLD MAGAZINE (ISSUE 397 - MAY 2014): Available to download now. Get the app from Apple Newsstand or GooglePlay, or click here to read it online now at Pocketmags.com - Print edition in shops from Friday, or click here to get it delivered by post in the UK or worldwide.

Rugby League World - April 2014
League Express

Podcast

Photo
* * * * - 4 votes

The never-ending League Restructure debate (Many merged threads)

League Express Rookies Social Media League structures I appreciate Why

  • Please log in to reply
4666 replies to this topic

#1501 Ackroman

Ackroman
  • Coach
  • 1,705 posts

Posted 20 August 2013 - 01:26 PM

Actually, this deserves a better reply.

 

1. You say that I wish to discount the loss of RFL status and having to rebuild from scratch.  On the contrary - those events of 1999 were caused by exactly the sort of misplaced optimism that you advocate.  "Win the Cup and they will come." 

 

2. Fourteen years ago, we weren't in recession - the economic climate is not significantly worse than that of today.

 

3. You say that Sheffield's attendances will be boosted by the new system.  Will they ?  That remains to be seen.

 

4. I find that history is actually a very good guide to what might happen in the future.  What is so different in the future ?  A new, complex competition structure ?  Is that really enough to bring fans flooding back ?  Sheffield just need to increase their gates by 1500% to get back to where they were 20+ years ago.........

 

1. If I have misplaced optimism then you're a pessimist 

 

2. I am completely at a loss as to your economic comparisons of 14 years ago. Were we in recession or not? Is it worse or not? well clearly it is worse, much, much worse than 1999.

 

3. Being a pessimist you can't grasp what a positive attitude can bring.

 

4. I didn't realise Sheffield's gates were 15,000 back then so maybe you have a point after all.



#1502 Griff

Griff
  • Coach
  • 7,361 posts

Posted 20 August 2013 - 01:27 PM

 Huddersfield took the million pounds on offer from the RFl for mergers. How much of that went to the eagles?

 

None - it pretty much all went on paying off players' contracts.

 

Why should the new Eagles get it anyway ?  The money was for merging - not for setting up a new club.  I don't get your point here.


"We'll sell you a seat .... but you'll only need the edge of it!"
 


#1503 Ackroman

Ackroman
  • Coach
  • 1,705 posts

Posted 20 August 2013 - 01:27 PM

Just having a benefactor chipping in millions is not "growing".

Maybe you can tell us what Parky thinks growth is, or what your own definition is.



#1504 Griff

Griff
  • Coach
  • 7,361 posts

Posted 20 August 2013 - 01:33 PM

1. If I have misplaced optimism then you're a pessimist 

 

2. I am completely at a loss as to your economic comparisons of 14 years ago. Were we in recession or not? Is it worse or not? well clearly it is worse, much, much worse than 1999.

 

3. Being a pessimist you can't grasp what a positive attitude can bring.

 

4. I didn't realise Sheffield's gates were 15,000 back then so maybe you have a point after all.

 

1. I'm not a pessimist - just a realist.

 

2. So now's the time to expect huge crowd increases ?

 

3. Why don't you come to Sheffield and have a go ?

 

4. Doh - dammed keyboards !


"We'll sell you a seat .... but you'll only need the edge of it!"
 


#1505 Ackroman

Ackroman
  • Coach
  • 1,705 posts

Posted 20 August 2013 - 01:45 PM

1. You ignore the fact the Fev chairman put very large sums of money in to rescue Fev from CC1, now very large sums of money are going in to rescue them from CC.

 

2. The idea that there's a virtuous cycle in which a club attracts paying fans, buys betters players, attracts more paying fans buys even better players, attracts even more paying fans still and attracts even better players still is nonsense and has never happened.

 

3. Show me where it has?

 

1. Do I? Growth is a reaction to investment, and subsequent interest, then more investment, and further interest etc. At least I have an idea what it is.

 

2. I never said it was a virtuous cycle. But from a low base you can grow far quicker.

 

3. I don't have to answer questions I never posed in the first place, I never said it was a virtuous circle. I gave examples of clubs that can/have grown. They have invested, now they need to generate interest to evidence that they are growing. Some clubs have invested in facilities, some in fantastic coaching and players, the catalyst to growth, I believe, is the 3x8.

 

Pessimists think what we have had is what we will get but the socio-economic background to it is far different in our future than in our past. If you don't believe in the 3x8 then fine but don't use the past as an example for why it will fail when it has never been tried. The only other time where there was as much fluidity in the league structure was the 1 divisional structure and at that time there were many more clubs in and around the yo yo belt winning more of their matches than they do now. 


Edited by Ackroman, 20 August 2013 - 01:46 PM.


#1506 Ackroman

Ackroman
  • Coach
  • 1,705 posts

Posted 20 August 2013 - 01:49 PM

1. I'm not a pessimist - just a realist.

 

2. So now's the time to expect huge crowd increases ?

 

3. Why don't you come to Sheffield and have a go ?

 

4. Doh - dammed keyboards !

1. No a pessimist

2. I never said huge but I don't get the relevance. Interestingly enough RL has always done well out of a recession.

3. I'm from Dewsbury. I have little to be optimistic about.



#1507 Griff

Griff
  • Coach
  • 7,361 posts

Posted 20 August 2013 - 03:19 PM

1. No a pessimist

2. I never said huge but I don't get the relevance. Interestingly enough RL has always done well out of a recession.

3. I'm from Dewsbury. I have little to be optimistic about.

 

1. The coming months will show whether optimism or pessimism to closer to realism.

 

2.  I didn't get yours either.  Hence the confusion all round.

 

3.  You'll have to clarify that too.  All I can interpret from that is you're a pessimist.   You could help Dewsbury out with your positive mental attitude.

 

I'm been at Sheffield for 30 years.   I've seen a lot of schemes come and go.  "Just get people to watch a game, they'll be hooked." "Cheap season tickets - that's the thing."  "Free season tickets for kids."  "Deals on the internet."  Meanwhile we've had two Chief Executives (or whatever the head honcho called himself at the time) for the vast bulk of those 30 years who could not have a more positive mental attitude in Gary Hetherington and Mark Aston.

 

Yet we have an average gate of less than 1000.  That's a growth of less than one person a week over 30 years.

 

Positive mental attitude isn't enough.


Edited by Griff, 20 August 2013 - 03:21 PM.

"We'll sell you a seat .... but you'll only need the edge of it!"
 


#1508 keighley

keighley
  • Coach
  • 4,158 posts

Posted 20 August 2013 - 03:22 PM

You need to be a bit more selective than reading the honours board.

 

Oh really. well all those areas had champion teams with large attendances, decent sized junior games and, for the eras they were top teams playing in decent grounds.  

 

History is no predictor of future trends. Have you ever bought any shares and read the prospectus. Past results are no predictor of future growth. History can be used as a guide to what was and maybe what could be, but current realitlies dictate, not conditions from the past.



#1509 Griff

Griff
  • Coach
  • 7,361 posts

Posted 20 August 2013 - 03:26 PM

Oh really. well all those areas had champion teams with large attendances, decent sized junior games and, for the eras they were top teams playing in decent grounds.  

 

History is no predictor of future trends. Have you ever bought any shares and read the prospectus. Past results are no predictor of future growth. History can be used as a guide to what was and maybe what could be, but current realitlies dictate, not conditions from the past.

 

Have it your own way.


"We'll sell you a seat .... but you'll only need the edge of it!"
 


#1510 keighley

keighley
  • Coach
  • 4,158 posts

Posted 20 August 2013 - 03:31 PM

Put any club in SL and the gates go up significantly. Want a long list??

 

That's not the point. Without financing gates alone will not support a SL club. Do you want a long list including various defaulters and bankruptees.

 

Keighley went from div 3 to Div 2 and trebled their gates but without financing it was not sustainable. Financing is crucial at all levels of the game including the sainted SL and to throw those allegations soley at Championship clubs is to complain about the speck in their eye and ignore the planks in your own.



#1511 keighley

keighley
  • Coach
  • 4,158 posts

Posted 20 August 2013 - 03:42 PM

None - it pretty much all went on paying off players' contracts.

 

Why should the new Eagles get it anyway ?  The money was for merging - not for setting up a new club.  I don't get your point here.

 

Well there's a merger where two entities join on equal terms and there's a takeover disguised as a merger where one of the partners pockets the money. strips the assets and quits the location of the other party, in essence causing them to cease to exist. 



#1512 Griff

Griff
  • Coach
  • 7,361 posts

Posted 20 August 2013 - 06:33 PM

Well there's a merger where two entities join on equal terms and there's a takeover disguised as a merger where one of the partners pockets the money. strips the assets and quits the location of the other party, in essence causing them to cease to exist. 

 

I'm pretty sure that the plan to play half the home games in Sheffield would have disappeared after a season, yes.  Pocketed the money? That's a distortion of the facts.  There were costs of the merger - mainly reducing the playing staff from 40 or 50 down to something more realistic.  Strips the assets ?  I'd hardly call taking on the playing staff "stripping the assets".  It was Ken Davy's money at the end of the day.  Paul Thompson wanted out.  Surely Ken gets to make a few decisions that suit him ?

 

Anyway, what's all this got to do with this thread ? <_<


Edited by Griff, 20 August 2013 - 06:33 PM.

"We'll sell you a seat .... but you'll only need the edge of it!"
 


#1513 keighley

keighley
  • Coach
  • 4,158 posts

Posted 20 August 2013 - 07:57 PM

I'm pretty sure that the plan to play half the home games in Sheffield would have disappeared after a season, yes.  Pocketed the money? That's a distortion of the facts.  There were costs of the merger - mainly reducing the playing staff from 40 or 50 down to something more realistic.  Strips the assets ?  I'd hardly call taking on the playing staff "stripping the assets".  It was Ken Davy's money at the end of the day.  Paul Thompson wanted out.  Surely Ken gets to make a few decisions that suit him ?

 

Anyway, what's all this got to do with this thread ? <_<

 

It's to do with you denigrating Sheffield Eagles as not being fit for purpose for SL because of their previous failure when, in fact, Sheffield Eagles , mark 1, were thrown to the wolves in a shambolic fake merger carried out soley for the million pound bonus on offer and none of that went to the eagles and they were asset stripped and ceased to exist.

 

That the current mark 2 eagles are where they are is a testament to their success given their starting point and they are a good bet to suceed in SL given their track record to date and to throw the melt down of the mark 1 eagles at the current team as a reason for them not to be considered for SL is disingenuous.



#1514 The Parksider

The Parksider
  • Coach
  • 16,367 posts

Posted 20 August 2013 - 08:35 PM

That the current mark 2 eagles are where they are is a testament to their success given their starting point and they are a good bet to suceed in SL given their track record to date

 

1,000 crowds, no record of development of local lads into professionals, OK team easily beaten by useless Broncos.

 

Great record and "good bet to succeed in SL"???



#1515 keighley

keighley
  • Coach
  • 4,158 posts

Posted 21 August 2013 - 01:01 AM

1,000 crowds, no record of development of local lads into professionals, OK team easily beaten by useless Broncos.

 

Great record and "good bet to succeed in SL"???

 

Well, you've not been keeping up with the news. Crowds have risen by about 50% since the teams re incarnation. This gives them an average crowd of just about half of that pulled in by the Broncos and that is playing such leading lights as Hunslet and Keighley.

 They have a team in the amateur ranks chock full of Sheffield and midlands players, scouted and recruited by the club. They were beaten by the Broncos in a disappointing result, but the bright side of that was the attendance, which if I remember rightly, was over 2,000.

 

Their record is great. Defending champions, current league leaders.If they were to fold tomorrow, I'd bet the SL bloodhounds would be sniffing round several of their players..like dogs in a butcher's shop.

 

Given Mark Aston's track record since he reformed the Eagles, yes, I wouldn't bet on them not succeeding in SL. He seems to be an executive/player manager and coach with an extraordinary resume.

 

Don't forget Dr Khoukash, Mr Nahaboo, the gentleman at Halifax ( Brookes is it) and Mr Khan were unknown to RL and are now significant sponsors of teams. Sheffield is a big city. There could well be an investor lurking out there who could be interested in Sheffield.especially once p and r is in the equation

 

I would certainly bet on them making a success of SL if they got the nchance................



#1516 Ackroman

Ackroman
  • Coach
  • 1,705 posts

Posted 21 August 2013 - 09:00 AM

Well, you've not been keeping up with the news. Crowds have risen by about 50% since the teams re incarnation. This gives them an average crowd of just about half of that pulled in by the Broncos and that is playing such leading lights as Hunslet and Keighley.

 They have a team in the amateur ranks chock full of Sheffield and midlands players, scouted and recruited by the club. They were beaten by the Broncos in a disappointing result, but the bright side of that was the attendance, which if I remember rightly, was over 2,000.

 

Their record is great. Defending champions, current league leaders.If they were to fold tomorrow, I'd bet the SL bloodhounds would be sniffing round several of their players..like dogs in a butcher's shop.

 

Given Mark Aston's track record since he reformed the Eagles, yes, I wouldn't bet on them not succeeding in SL. He seems to be an executive/player manager and coach with an extraordinary resume.

 

Don't forget Dr Khoukash, Mr Nahaboo, the gentleman at Halifax ( Brookes is it) and Mr Khan were unknown to RL and are now significant sponsors of teams. Sheffield is a big city. There could well be an investor lurking out there who could be interested in Sheffield.especially once p and r is in the equation

 

I would certainly bet on them making a success of SL if they got the nchance................

 

Thank you



#1517 Griff

Griff
  • Coach
  • 7,361 posts

Posted 21 August 2013 - 09:05 AM

It's to do with you denigrating Sheffield Eagles as not being fit for purpose for SL because of their previous failure when, in fact, Sheffield Eagles , mark 1, were thrown to the wolves in a shambolic fake merger carried out soley for the million pound bonus on offer and none of that went to the eagles and they were asset stripped and ceased to exist.

 

That the current mark 2 eagles are where they are is a testament to their success given their starting point and they are a good bet to suceed in SL given their track record to date and to throw the melt down of the mark 1 eagles at the current team as a reason for them not to be considered for SL is disingenuous.

 

Denigrating ?  I was part of all that, thank you very much .......

 

None of that million went to Shuddersfield either.  The winners were the players.  Exactly what "assets" are we talking about here ? Players with unexpired contracts in post-Bosman days ?

 

Sheffield Eagles have done fantastically well pretty much over their 30 season history - except in the key area of building a customer base.   Everything is in place for $uperleague - except about 3000* fans.  Tell me about the size of the city and its potential and then tell me about London which is more than ten times as big.   It's not about the size of your catchment area, it's about how many come through the turnstiles.

 

The facts are that, in 1999, the crowds had dropped by around 1000 a match, the backer, who was putting in over £1m a year, had pulled the plug and the team was breaking up.   What would have been your plan ?

 

 

*3000 in Division 2, that is.  I'd expect some natural growth on promotion.


"We'll sell you a seat .... but you'll only need the edge of it!"
 


#1518 Griff

Griff
  • Coach
  • 7,361 posts

Posted 21 August 2013 - 09:23 AM

1,000 crowds, no record of development of local lads into professionals, OK team easily beaten by useless Broncos.

 

Great record and "good bet to succeed in SL"???

 

There's a few local kids coming through now, Parky.  At Championship level.

 

Eddie Battye's pretty much a regular choice at prop.  Cory Aston's played well in the three games he's had so far.   Lee Sanders and Connor Scott have played first team this year.

 

Little acorns ........


"We'll sell you a seat .... but you'll only need the edge of it!"
 


#1519 gingerjon

gingerjon
  • Coach
  • 28,394 posts

Posted 21 August 2013 - 09:28 AM

This is getting confusing now.  Are we really suggesting that Sheffield - sole Challenge Cup final appearance in the 1990s, loyal but small fanbase, big city potential never realised, handful of locals now making the team, don't have a ground to call their own - are the ideal candidates to replace London - sole Challenge Cup final appearance in the 1990s, loyal but small fanbase, big city potential never realised, handful of locals now making the team, don't have a ground to call their own?


Cheer up, RL is actually rather good
- Severus, July 2012

#1520 Griff

Griff
  • Coach
  • 7,361 posts

Posted 21 August 2013 - 09:54 AM

This is getting confusing now.  Are we really suggesting that Sheffield - sole Challenge Cup final appearance in the 1990s, loyal but small fanbase, big city potential never realised, handful of locals now making the team, don't have a ground to call their own - are the ideal candidates to replace London - sole Challenge Cup final appearance in the 1990s, loyal but small fanbase, big city potential never realised, handful of locals now making the team, don't have a ground to call their own?

 

Good summary of the situation.  When you put it like that, you could be right. ;)


Edited by Griff, 21 August 2013 - 09:55 AM.

"We'll sell you a seat .... but you'll only need the edge of it!"
 





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users