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Is it really all my fault?


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#41 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 05:54 PM

Unfortunately, for far too many people forums, twitter, facebook etc are the real world.

 

Views are spread over social media extremely quickly nowadays, much of it negative for RL. I think only Joey Barton and Wayne Rooney actually like RL!

over the years I've spent a lot of time on here for several reasons

 

but it occuppies a minute ammount of what I think about during my waking moments. I don't think I've ever made a post that's taken longer than a minute to type.

There are interesting, decent' funny  people on here witth lots of ideas to share.

 

but it's just a talking bshop


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#42 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 06:00 PM

 

That's too hard a question for me.

Throughout its history, it has proved extremely difficult, almost impossible, to generate a sustained appetite for the sport in new areas. If it is to be done, it will need a much more selfless approach from the top clubs. When I see Leeds sacrificing their home advantage to play Saint Helens at Nottingham in a high profile, well advertised, low priced, televised fixture, I will feel a beginning has been made. Or Warrington v Wigan at Bristol, or Hull v Hull KR at Newcastle. When London is generously centrally funded, sufficient for a top team, their matches low priced, televised, well advertised, taken to various venues around the capital, I'll feel progress is being made. Replacing Catalans by the French national side could be a move forward. All clubs forced to run U12, U14, U16, U18, U20 teams would be progress, in my opinion.

But I also believe a change to the on field view of the game would help. Re-adjusting the rules to reduce the value of size and power, so increasing the need for a wider range of skills, making the game just a little more accessible to smaller and more nimble players could increase junior participation.

But that's nothing more than a personal vision for taking the game forward. I'm sure there are more effective ones.

 

you say on another post that you are 'sidenfranchised'. How does that work? When and how were you franchised in the firsat place regarding how the sport ids run? I would be horrified if I was expected to take part in the decision making of the sport. people are paid to do that, and I believe they do it in good faith. I have doubts about this change in the game, but don't think it means that the people who have taken that decisio are being unfair, immoral, dishonest, incompetent and all the other sliurs that have been levelled at them over recent years for whom the previous ways of doing things didn't suit.

 

There are players of all sizes playing rugby League. Compare Andy Kain/Jon Hepworth to say lamont Bryant and Andy Bostock and this is reflected throghout the game.

 

You claim to be 'disenfranchised', but don't seem to have anything radical to offer in the way the sport is run.


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#43 Dave T

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 06:06 PM

over the years I've spent a lot of time on here for several reasons

 

but it occuppies a minute ammount of what I think about during my waking moments. I don't think I've ever made a post that's taken longer than a minute to type.

There are interesting, decent' funny  people on here witth lots of ideas to share.

 

but it's just a talking bshop

Aye, for all my moans, this place is a good place to discuss RL.

 

There are plenty of people who's interaction with RL is through forums, twitter and facebook - even mine, I rarely get to games any more, maybe that's why it depresses me so much!

Same with some of my family that do still go to games, I often hear them repeating things where I know the source online.

 

The internet has replaced the pub gossip and taken it to a whole new level. Unfortunately there is no quality control!



#44 deluded pom?

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 06:31 PM

Aye, for all my moans, this place is a good place to discuss RL.
 
There are plenty of people who's interaction with RL is through forums, twitter and facebook - even mine, I rarely get to games any more, maybe that's why it depresses me so much!
Same with some of my family that do still go to games, I often hear them repeating things where I know the source online.
 
The internet has replaced the pub gossip and taken it to a whole new level. Unfortunately there is no quality control!

Was there quality control in a pub conversation Dave?

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#45 Dave T

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 06:43 PM

Was there quality control in a pub conversation Dave?

No, but I couldn't see/hear what was being said outside of my group of friends.

 

Now we hear such a wide range of views from across the globe. Generally a very good thing.



#46 deluded pom?

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 06:52 PM

No, but I couldn't see/hear what was being said outside of my group of friends.
 
Now we hear such a wide range of views from across the globe. Generally a very good thing.

True. I know we don't have to read everything that is posted but we do tend to read things we might not have heard in a pub conversation.

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#47 PurstonJavelin

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 04:31 AM

Smaller than Rob Burrow?

Thank you. I won £2 on a bet that someone would submit this post.



#48 PurstonJavelin

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 04:42 AM

I think they're more likely to be put off by all the incessant navel gazing that goes on in all corners of Rugby League in this country. As a sport we spend more time talking about the merits and demerits of league structures, licensing and mechanisms of promotion & relegation than we do extolling the entertainment the players on the pitch provide each week irrespective of what competition they happen to be playing in. In other words, if we project the image to the outside world that even we don't think the game is much cop, it's little wonder we struggle to attract new interest, regardless of how we structure our competitions. We can't see the wood for the trees.

You are right, but there are folk - not you - who want to point a finger of blame. The astonishing level of negativity this week has come from Super League supporters, because - effectively - the top clubs have manipulated a vote to get rid of a couple of their less valuable fixtures.

I don't understand why a few powerless supporters of the lower leagues get the blame for a perceived lack of progress in the sport. The real reactionary force comes from those who believe that because Leeds and Warrington are doing well, the sport is perfect, and should never change, ever.



#49 PurstonJavelin

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 05:27 AM

you say on another post that you are 'sidenfranchised'. How does that work? When and how were you franchised in the firsat place regarding how the sport ids run? I would be horrified if I was expected to take part in the decision making of the sport. people are paid to do that, and I believe they do it in good faith. I have doubts about this change in the game, but don't think it means that the people who have taken that decisio are being unfair, immoral, dishonest, incompetent and all the other sliurs that have been levelled at them over recent years for whom the previous ways of doing things didn't suit.

 

There are players of all sizes playing rugby League. Compare Andy Kain/Jon Hepworth to say lamont Bryant and Andy Bostock and this is reflected throghout the game.

 

You claim to be 'disenfranchised', but don't seem to have anything radical to offer in the way the sport is run.

You asked me to expand my comments, and I did so. Reluctantly, because they are one view amongst thousands, and have very little value, derived from the heart, carelessly thought out, and probably inconsistent. And you are right, I most certainly have nothing radical to offer. All I really did was claim that if there are problems in the sport, I don't see how it is my fault, and mused on whose fault it is. Rather pathetic, really, looking back.

 

I have to say, I am disappointed with the quality of responses from some, who have taken the trouble to read my posts, who clearly have a passion for the sport, and, in many cases, a deep knowledge, and yet involved themselves in a discussion without convincingly developing their own viewpoint, resorting instead to short, disparaging, dismissive attacks. And the predominant response seems to be from Super League supporters who must believe that the sport has reached its apex, because they want nothing to change. They may, of course, be right.

 

I would actually be interested in someone describing a potentially successful pathway for the progress in the sport for the next few years. Not a dream or a hope, but a set of minor adjustments with a realistic chance of positioning the sport in the place we all believe it deserves.



#50 The Parksider

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 06:54 AM

 

Having had the misfortune to have been born in a small Northern town and of being a loyal supporter of the local team, I am, apparently, a small-minded, self-interested, flat earth believing, banjo playing, flat cap wearing, bigoted dinosaur responsible for holding back Rugby League from it's rightful place in the sporting hierarchy.

 

If the sport does not meet expectations, it is not our fault. If those who make the decisions have to make changes because they are worried about the progress of the sport, it is not our fault. When London finally fail, when the Salford euphoria comes to nothing, it will not be our fault. When SKY reduces its money, it will not be our fault. When Bradford, Hull KR, Huddersfield and others, find themselves in financial trouble, it will not be our fault. Failure to generate an appetite for the sport in new areas is not our fault. And when the 12 team Super League reduces to 10 and then 8 teams, it will not be our fault.

 

Disappointingly, some of us may have a smile if any of the above crises occur; small-minded self interest is quite unpleasant. But big-minded self interest is much more destructive.

 

 

If you are not a voting shareholder at your club then of course you have no power or influence on the way the game is run. I think we work on the idea this is a free country, and if any RL club wants to offer members of the public the chance to watch a rugby league match in return for a small sum of money that's between them, and once the game is done the deal is over.

 

How you feel anything is "your fault" I dunno, how you manage to allow others to make you feel that way I dunno.

 

If I ever took exception to "supporters" views I suppose it was the protests against mergers in 1995/6. Whilst I'm not against protest at all I am against minority groups overbearing influence on the "silent majority" but then again who knows what supporters want if the views of everyone whose ever paid for a ticket to an RL match are not fully canvassed. The protesters may have represented the vast majority of fans at that time.

 

So it was those who owned the clubs then and those who own the clubs now that carry the burden of being part responsible for the health of the game, certainly not you. The collective responsibility lies with all the clubs for the professional game belongs to them. If they choose to do what they do it's their choice, and if we all end up with no clubs to support it's not any of our faults. 

 

As for Featherstone, or Wakefield or Castleford the situation is fluid and the clubs make their own decisions as to how to progress and none of the non shareholding with voting rights supporters have any influence and therefore no responsibility for those decisions. If merger was the way to go then I assume there's been no vote and I assume you therefore have not effectively voted against it?

 

Besides it's a dead policy, and the collective policy is for clubs to fight it out for the fans sponsors investors and players needed to run a profitable SL club, rather than a liability, if that's what they want to do. Featherstone have just as much right to do that as Cas or Wakefield and who knows where this will go but events may see Rovers succeed in the way such as Huddersfield came from behind to succeed over Halifax and Bradford.

 

If that happens, I trust on the basis things are not your fault, you won't personally claim any kudos for such a success!


Edited by The Parksider, 14 July 2013 - 06:58 AM.


#51 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 07:37 AM

 

You asked me to expand my comments, and I did so. Reluctantly, because they are one view amongst thousands, and have very little value, derived from the heart, carelessly thought out, and probably inconsistent. And you are right, I most certainly have nothing radical to offer. All I really did was claim that if there are problems in the sport, I don't see how it is my fault, and mused on whose fault it is. Rather pathetic, really, looking back.

 

I have to say, I am disappointed with the quality of responses from some, who have taken the trouble to read my posts, who clearly have a passion for the sport, and, in many cases, a deep knowledge, and yet involved themselves in a discussion without convincingly developing their own viewpoint, resorting instead to short, disparaging, dismissive attacks. And the predominant response seems to be from Super League supporters who must believe that the sport has reached its apex, because they want nothing to change. They may, of course, be right.

 

I would actually be interested in someone describing a potentially successful pathway for the progress in the sport for the next few years. Not a dream or a hope, but a set of minor adjustments with a realistic chance of positioning the sport in the place we all believe it deserves.

 

to say there are problems in the sport is stating the obvious. There have always been problems in ths spott and always will be. I fail to see how you have been blamed for them

 

Has it occurred to you that your own posts might be substandard. As for developing 'their' own viewpoint isn't that exactly what you are doing...and why not.

 

I have seen no evidence whatsoever, and maybe you can provide it that 'super league supporters' believe that the sp[ort has reacged its 'apex' far from it. In fact I defy you to identify a 'super league supporter', let alone one who thinks rugby league has reached its apex-that's a truly risible thought.

 

you expect others to come up with solutions, but are unwilling to consider coming up with any yourself.


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#52 oldrover

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 08:14 AM


you expect others to come up with solutions, but are unwilling to consider coming up with any yourself.

pot, kettle black


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#53 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 08:17 AM

pot, kettle black

no

I thought and still think that licensing was the way forward

 

I think there is a strong argument for p and r as well as it happens. On a personal level I would love rugby league to be able to progress with this format, but history has shown that this isn't possible and the format was discredited over a period of 22 years.

 

One of the things that has disenchanted me is the way the argument in favour of reinstating p and r has been put forward;

 

a lack of credible  evidence

 

constant whingeing about morality, unfairness, justice(the lastthree showing remarkable levels of hypocrisy as well as being untrue), being left to rot, being victimised: when what we have actually had is people charged with the job of making sense of the rubbish hand that rugby league has been dealt with including reactionary small mindedness from within as they saw fit. In changing policy the way they have done, the governing body have done just the same and I respect that. I don't think it's the way forward for a sport wanting to grow, present a progressive face to the world and strengthen itself so that uktimately we will have competitions that can sustain mobility between them because all the conditions to make it work are in place-economically, geographically and demoghraphically. I think in the medium to long term that this wont happen. This disappoints me greatly, but I can appreciate that the governing body have acted in good faith and wont be constantly vilifying them for decades to come.

 

I hope what has been put in place works, -I dont want it to fail some self serving notion of it fitting with my own ideas or that it would suit any given club, but because I want the sport to succeed. I think it deserves to succeed despite the debilitating culture of parochial self interest that exists within it.


Edited by l'angelo mysterioso, 14 July 2013 - 08:36 AM.

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#54 Bomballey

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 09:05 AM

Of course it's not.....

Apart from the odd exception, the thing we all have in common is the love of our game.

The solutions to the challenges we face are complex but also achievable. For me they are:

1. The international scene. It lacks a clear structure. All other major sports have fixed competitions that even members of the public with a passing interest get hooked into because it becomes part if the social calendar eg the six nations & lions tours. I love the game but would struggle to explain what RL international fixtures look like over the next 4 years. The media will never latch on to it properly when it's like that.

2. Cup competitions.. The Challenge cup is world famous but it does not fit in our season now & upsets the flow of SL. 12 teams might help but it needs a fix. Start the season with it?

3. The SKY paradox. It's where we get most of our exposure but recently I cringe at Eddie & Stevo's constant insecure efforts of talking up the game. They both clearly love the game but guys just commentate on what's happening. I think Ray Warren is a fantastic commentator - he doesn't make a big deal out of the negatives in the game. References to "the merry flag waver" are outdated & embarrassing. Time for a change.

4. "Why are they all Australian?" Sometimes my daughter watches a game on SKY with me as do my southern mates. At some point they have all asked me this. Their impression of our game, created mainly by interviews pre & post match, is that 75% of players & coaches are not from our shores. They struggle to identify with this. The reality is changing but a long way to go.

5. Promotion & relegation. It gets the emotions flowing but every other sport in the UK has it. Again, the media & public understand it, identify with it & like it. Underpin it with transparent criteria. Use off a play off system with the bottom of SL & top 3 of championship would work. The clubs at the grass roots have to have a way up.

6. Marketing by the clubs. My clubs website is perfunctory. It lacks so much. Things like this have to work harder. Kids in for a fiver has to be seen has an investment & publicised efficiently.

I could go on. It's the greatest game on earth. The senior figures at the clubs and the heads of the game have to handle it and nurture it correctly.

#55 Padge

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 09:33 AM

Of course it's not.....

Apart from the odd exception, the thing we all have in common is the love of our game.

The solutions to the challenges we face are complex but also achievable. For me they are:

1. The international scene. It lacks a clear structure. All other major sports have fixed competitions that even members of the public with a passing interest get hooked into because it becomes part if the social calendar eg the six nations & lions tours. I love the game but would struggle to explain what RL international fixtures look like over the next 4 years. The media will never latch on to it properly when it's like that.

2. Cup competitions.. The Challenge cup is world famous but it does not fit in our season now & upsets the flow of SL. 12 teams might help but it needs a fix. Start the season with it?

3. The SKY paradox. It's where we get most of our exposure but recently I cringe at Eddie & Stevo's constant insecure efforts of talking up the game. They both clearly love the game but guys just commentate on what's happening. I think Ray Warren is a fantastic commentator - he doesn't make a big deal out of the negatives in the game. References to "the merry flag waver" are outdated & embarrassing. Time for a change.

4. "Why are they all Australian?" Sometimes my daughter watches a game on SKY with me as do my southern mates. At some point they have all asked me this. Their impression of our game, created mainly by interviews pre & post match, is that 75% of players & coaches are not from our shores. They struggle to identify with this. The reality is changing but a long way to go.

5. Promotion & relegation. It gets the emotions flowing but every other sport in the UK has it. Again, the media & public understand it, identify with it & like it. Underpin it with transparent criteria. Use off a play off system with the bottom of SL & top 3 of championship would work. The clubs at the grass roots have to have a way up.

6. Marketing by the clubs. My clubs website is perfunctory. It lacks so much. Things like this have to work harder. Kids in for a fiver has to be seen has an investment & publicised efficiently.

I could go on. It's the greatest game on earth. The senior figures at the clubs and the heads of the game have to handle it and nurture it correctly.

 

1. We cannot solve the international problem alone, the RFL are trying their best to drive a European international dimension but we need Australia to see the benefits of International competition and take it seriously for any movement forward. We are however developing a regular four nations and World Cup. Watch this space.

 

2. Starting the season with the challenge cup is a none starter, teams gear players up for the start of the season, get knocked out in the first round and then sit on their backsides for 2 months. Forget that one.

 

3. Agree.

 

4. I have never heard anyone make such a comment when I have been talking to anyone from anywhere in this country. I haven't even heard anyone say that all soccer players are foreigners and they have a lot more over seas players than us.

 

5. Every other sport in the UK doesn't have P&R and those that have do what we do and have a standards based P&R (including ground standards) this notion that you can waltz through the football league all the way to the premiership by just winning three leagues is a nonsesnse. We also have a problem a lot of other sports don't have in that we have one professional league and below it we have semi-pro, the leap up is enormous, almost insurmountable without assistance, i.e a guaranteed place for three years.

 

5. Agree



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#56 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 10:03 AM

Of course it's not.....

Apart from the odd exception, the thing we all have in common is the love of our game.

The solutions to the challenges we face are complex but also achievable. For me they are:

1. The international scene. It lacks a clear structure. All other major sports have fixed competitions that even members of the public with a passing interest get hooked into because it becomes part if the social calendar eg the six nations & lions tours. I love the game but would struggle to explain what RL international fixtures look like over the next 4 years. The media will never latch on to it properly when it's like that.

2. Cup competitions.. The Challenge cup is world famous but it does not fit in our season now & upsets the flow of SL. 12 teams might help but it needs a fix. Start the season with it?

3. The SKY paradox. It's where we get most of our exposure but recently I cringe at Eddie & Stevo's constant insecure efforts of talking up the game. They both clearly love the game but guys just commentate on what's happening. I think Ray Warren is a fantastic commentator - he doesn't make a big deal out of the negatives in the game. References to "the merry flag waver" are outdated & embarrassing. Time for a change.

4. "Why are they all Australian?" Sometimes my daughter watches a game on SKY with me as do my southern mates. At some point they have all asked me this. Their impression of our game, created mainly by interviews pre & post match, is that 75% of players & coaches are not from our shores. They struggle to identify with this. The reality is changing but a long way to go.

5. Promotion & relegation. It gets the emotions flowing but every other sport in the UK has it. Again, the media & public understand it, identify with it & like it. Underpin it with transparent criteria. Use off a play off system with the bottom of SL & top 3 of championship would work. The clubs at the grass roots have to have a way up.

6. Marketing by the clubs. My clubs website is perfunctory. It lacks so much. Things like this have to work harder. Kids in for a fiver has to be seen has an investment & publicised efficiently.

I could go on. It's the greatest game on earth. The senior figures at the clubs and the heads of the game have to handle it and nurture it correctly.

You make some excellent points some of which I agree with
But personally I don't 'love' the game and I never have

Edited by l'angelo mysterioso, 14 July 2013 - 10:06 AM.

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#57 PurstonJavelin

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 10:40 AM

to say there are problems in the sport is stating the obvious. There have always been problems in ths spott and always will be. I fail to see how you have been blamed for them

 

Has it occurred to you that your own posts might be substandard. As for developing 'their' own viewpoint isn't that exactly what you are doing...and why not.

 

I have seen no evidence whatsoever, and maybe you can provide it that 'super league supporters' believe that the sp[ort has reacged its 'apex' far from it. In fact I defy you to identify a 'super league supporter', let alone one who thinks rugby league has reached its apex-that's a truly risible thought.

 

you expect others to come up with solutions, but are unwilling to consider coming up with any yourself.

Goodness me.

 

Thank you for the input.

 

I still stick by my original post. No matter how entrenched our views, how substandard our comments, how cowardly our lack of reasoned response, how far from a Socratic ideal our arguments fall, if there are problems in the sport, the teams and their supporters from the lower leagues have had less impact on the situation than some would suggest.



#58 JohnM

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 10:45 AM

Goodness me.

 

Thank you for the input.

 

I still stick by my original post. No matter how entrenched our views, how substandard our comments, how cowardly our lack of reasoned response, how far from a Socratic ideal our arguments fall, if there are problems in the sport, the teams and their supporters from the lower leagues have had less impact on the situation than some would suggest.

 

the teams and their supporters from the lower leagues have had less impact on the situation than some would suggest.

 

some? Who?



#59 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 11:07 AM

Goodness me.

Thank you for the input.

I still stick by my original post. No matter how entrenched our views, how substandard our comments, how cowardly our lack of reasoned response, how far from a Socratic ideal our arguments fall, if there are problems in the sport, the teams and their supporters from the lower leagues have had less impact on the situation than some would suggest.

I have no idea what impact the people you mention have had
But self interested parochialism has for whatever got what it wants
I'm a purstonian too
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#60 zorquif

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 12:14 PM

I have a whippet that plays the banjo




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