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Where do France go if Toulouse don't get in sl


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230 replies to this topic

#181 Just to be clear

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 09:19 AM

I think it's perfectly reasonable and sensible.


Just to be clear, are you happy with clubs in the second tier with much smaller budgets having to pay the additional cost of trips to France, twice a year for some?

Obviously you would not be expecting it to be subsidised given it is such a perfectly reasonable and sensible place for them to play.

#182 Ponterover

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 10:45 AM

Just to be clear, are you happy with clubs in the second tier with much smaller budgets having to pay the additional cost of trips to France, twice a year for some?

Obviously you would not be expecting it to be subsidised given it is such a perfectly reasonable and sensible place for them to play.

 

Yes

 

If the article in League Weekly last week is correct about the new distribution of funds, all 12 2nd division clubs will receive a larger slice of the central pot, one would imagine that this will more than cover the cost of an annual jaunt to Toulouse.

 

Of course if Toulouse do have the right level of investment, they won't be hanging around in the 2nd division for too long will they?



#183 Toulouse31

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 02:05 PM

Does someone know what is the mini/maxi SL  clubs' turnover? This is just to compare how Toulouse is placed according to the business plan they built to enter in SL...



#184 Ackroman

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 02:54 PM

At the core of the decision to move forward is to ask why we have French clubs in the first place when there is no plan for developing the French national side through regular internationals.

 
it seems to me the reason for a French club being in SL is to generate investment in that club rather than investment in French RL. You only have to look at the playing rosta at Catalan to see just how obvious this is.
 
Further, the recent comments regarding the inclusion of another French team in SL as a method to improve sponsorship is a red herring. SL is not designed as a product to promote French RL. SL is the showcase for British RL. And what British RL has is a regional pull when it comes to sponsorship. SL is going to have to perform some miracles to gain national sponsorships to even dip into European wide investment. What product or service looking to develop a European brand would look at SL as a platform? It just doesn't add up and the facts show just how regionalised the game is seen because 1 French club, or even 2 doesn't offer a bigger opportunity for sponsors. 
 
So what is this French entente cordiale all about? It seems 1 way to me. UK sponsorships and UK TV deals subsidising the French game without a clear outcome. 
 
My thoughts on it now is that the French should argue for 2 franchises in SL and pay for them through their own regional marketing plan to at least give SL some semblance of sense. Otherwise the changes to improve the British game are likely to expose the French game for how little it has developed.


#185 The Parksider

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 03:05 PM

Does someone know what is the mini/maxi SL  clubs' turnover? This is just to compare how Toulouse is placed according to the business plan they built to enter in SL...


CKN a moderator on here feels that the minimum turnover in Superleague could be as low as £3,200,000 a year, but that is a bare minimum just to exist around the bottom of the Superleague. I understand les catalans were going to turn over Euro6,500,000.

The top clubs like leeds and Wigan could be over £6,000,000. You may get better answers from a couple of posters on here who have seen SL clubs acounts.

What's the clubs attitude to the french national side???

#186 Just to be clear

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 06:17 PM

Of course if Toulouse do have the right level of investment, they won't be hanging around in the 2nd division for too long will they?


Just to be clear, are you saying Toulouse should be exempt from the salary cap, or that even with the greater central funding the top English clubs in the division would be unable to afford the salary cap?

On the issue of that central funding, if as suggested the top team in the second tier receives half a million more than the bottom one, how affordable the added travel will be while also attempting to field a competitive side will depend very much on which club you support. Although whether that is reasonable and sensible is another debate entirely.

#187 Ponterover

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 06:50 AM

Just to be clear, are you saying Toulouse should be exempt from the salary cap, or that even with the greater central funding the top English clubs in the division would be unable to afford the salary cap?

 

 

I'm going to have to assume that English is not your first language



#188 Toulouse31

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 07:52 AM

CKN a moderator on here feels that the minimum turnover in Superleague could be as low as £3,200,000 a year, but that is a bare minimum just to exist around the bottom of the Superleague. I understand les catalans were going to turn over Euro6,500,000.

The top clubs like leeds and Wigan could be over £6,000,000. You may get better answers from a couple of posters on here who have seen SL clubs acounts.

What's the clubs attitude to the french national side???

Generally, I can say that the RFL's decision is really awaited in France, because everybody push to support Toulouse. SL is a kind of 'showroom' to develop French RL as champion's league does for football.



#189 kioli

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 08:11 AM

So many British RL 'fans' have a village mentality it's scary. How the hell the game ever spread around the world I'll never know.



#190 Ackroman

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 09:15 AM

So many British RL 'fans' have a village mentality it's scary. How the hell the game ever spread around the world I'll never know.


The game expands because people like it not because of any fans mentality. Half the problem is that we haven't invested where it counts. In the schools for example.

But whether the game grows beyond where we are depends on how easy it is to establish a foothold at the next level. If there's a will and the money to achieve that then by all means invest but it still requires self determination rather than an intensive care mentality.

The example at Catalans is not necessarily evidence that there is a will or a landscape for achieving the next level. It seems to me that it is something we are hoping for rather than planning for with Toulouse. A bit like standing round a hospital bed hoping for the best.

Surely some evidence of consolidated grass roots development in France would give us signs there is life in the game. Surely that is better than repeating the big mistake of investing at the top of the game once more, filling the team with Aussies and hoping they will come.

One mistake is a mistake, 2 mistakes a coincidence, three mistakes?

#191 Ponterover

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 09:24 AM

The game expands because people like it not because of any fans mentality. Half the problem is that we haven't invested where it counts. In the schools for example.

But whether the game grows beyond where we are depends on how easy it is to establish a foothold at the next level. If there's a will and the money to achieve that then by all means invest but it still requires self determination rather than an intensive care mentality.

The example at Catalans is not necessarily evidence that there is a will or a landscape for achieving the next level. It seems to me that it is something we are hoping for rather than planning for with Toulouse. A bit like standing round a hospital bed hoping for the best.

Surely some evidence of consolidated grass roots development in France would give us signs there is life in the game. Surely that is better than repeating the big mistake of investing at the top of the game once more, filling the team with Aussies and hoping they will come.

One mistake is a mistake, 2 mistakes a coincidence, three mistakes?

 

That's a great post



#192 winnyason

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 09:26 AM

Really what utter dribble they will succed

#193 thundergaz

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 09:31 AM

Really what utter dribble they will succed


Don't know how you come to that conclusion. Only one expansion club as succeeded in my opinion and that's Catalans. I think its heavily stacked against Toulouse succeeding myself. I'm not against expansion as I personally think its good for the game and I wish Toulouse all the luck in the world if they get into SL.

#194 Ponterover

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 09:39 AM

Really what utter dribble they will succed

 

I think we all want them to succeed, but it's not a simple as "build it and they will come".



#195 Wellsy4HullFC

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 10:13 AM

Anything but a place in the top league will be a mistake. Toulouse are building the same way as Catalans, and I think the support expects the same. Putting them in the second tier will ultimately see the public not turn up. It would be like 2009 all over again. There's already bad memories of that.

Get the announcement done.
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#196 The Parksider

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 10:20 AM

Don't know how you come to that conclusion. Only one expansion club as succeeded in my opinion and that's Catalans. I think its heavily stacked against Toulouse succeeding myself. 

 

How you work that out or how anyone else is working that out I don't see the logic.

 

If Les Catalans are a success and if they are less reliant on Aussies now and producing their own players after six years, some of them budding stars, getting 9,000 crowds and attracting good local funding because French local govt work that way then when along comes the same sort of club, only in a richer and bigger city it ends up being a reasonable conclusion in my book that this is an absolute no-brainer. Switch to the dire need for competitive serious International RL in the northern hemishere and again it seems like a no brainer.

 

Why are Catalans fielding more quality french players?? I can only conclude bringing successful pro-RL to France stirs the interest in watching and playing it. Success breeds success and interest as it has done in Leeds, Warrington, Hull, Wigan and St.Helens where equally they attract big crowds, local sponsorship money and get the kids playing in larger numbers.

 

To see the inclusion as a "risk" and to doubt it is to prefer the alternative. What risks do we run putting Featherstone, Halifax, Sheffield or Leigh in SL? We know how badly they would struggle without private £millions. What was the actual record of putting Bradford, Salford or Wakefield in SL? The evidence is clear. How on earthe are Toulouse a risk and why do we worry about possible failure (the list of M62 failures in SL is double figures) when they clearly have more going for them than most alternative M62 choices??



#197 Ackroman

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 10:30 AM

Show the evidence or a decent hypothesis that Toulouse, on balance will add value to SL.

There may be some improvements at Catalan but for what benefit other than to the cub itself and what value do they add to SL?

#198 Ackroman

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 10:31 AM

I think we all want them to succeed, but it's not a simple as "build it and they will come".


I want success for France too but they have to want it as much as some on here. SL should not be a cash cow for French clubs.

#199 audois

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 11:28 AM

I want success for France too but they have to want it as much as some on here. SL should not be a cash cow for French clubs.


Yes but that money has primed the pump. It attracted significant investment. Gilbert Brutus was rebuilt with 7€M of public money and they're talking the same for Toulouse and Stade des Minimes. Turn over at UTC prior to SL probably 1€M whereas today it has grown to 6€M. Which other SL clubs have bettered that using the Sky grant to grow the business.
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#200 thundergaz

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 11:32 AM

Yes but that money has primed the pump. It attracted significant investment. Gilbert Brutus was rebuilt with 7€M of public money and they're talking the same for Toulouse and Stade des Minimes. Turn over at UTC prior to SL probably 1€M whereas today it has grown to 6€M. Which other SL clubs have bettered that using the Sky grant to grow the business.


With P&R returning I honestly can't see Toulouse being put into SL1. 2 SL clubs will be relegated from the current crop and I very much doubt the RFL will relegate a third to accommodate Toulouse. I personally don't mind which division Toulouse start off in but I'm sure the third SL club who would have to make way for Toulouse wouldn't be too happy.




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