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Where do France go if Toulouse don't get in sl


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#81 dkw

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 02:39 PM

Sorry, I didn't mean it to sound like it was toulouses mistakes only, it was more in reference to mistakes made by all involved.

#82 The Parksider

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 03:13 PM

Where does it say a full time Toulouse?


Toulouse spoke to the leading chairmen of the SLE about Superleague entry last year. The chairmen decided they would back Toulouse for Superleague. The RFL are apparently backing them as well. The fact is there's no licensing and things are to happen via P & R so it makes sense for them to go in SL2and the TV can have the story of Toulouses rise! That's if they do work their way up but they apparently have plenty of money....

#83 oiseau

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 03:37 PM

Christ I hate this kind of "arguing". You said it was because of greed from SL clubs, you have now been shown that is incorrect and this is your reply? Just bloody admit you were wrong.

 

I think Toulouse being given an opportunity in SL2 is a good idea, but I hope the previous failed effort has left them with plenty of information meaning they wont make the same mistakes. If my club are in SL2 then I would definitely look to going for a visit.

which 'failed effort' ? they didn't fail at all in fact they did really well on a limited budget and a bunch of part-timers for the most part trying to hold down a full time job and still somehow be expected to  train and travel to the uk every other week etc etc Toulouse in the CC1 wasn't a failure at all.

 

 

whichever league TO13 are put in exemption from relegation and the other  criteria shown to Catalans at their conception must be shown to Toulouse



#84 GeordieSaint

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 04:20 PM

whichever league TO13 are put in exemption from relegation and the other  criteria shown to Catalans at their conception must be shown to Toulouse

 

If the decision is made to put Toulouse is a so-called SL2 (which is nothing of the sort), the game will have made a hugely strategic mistake. No French TV company will pay for the rights to see Toulouse play Leigh or Whitehaven in what effective will be the same league they have previously played in. It also won't entice players from overseas or even potentially RU to play for a lower division side. If Toulouse are to be admitted, they go straight into the top division and are exempt from any form of relegation along with their Catalan countrymen.


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#85 robinson2

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 04:22 PM

There's something I'm not quite getting here. Assume we go to the RFL's lovechild of 2x12 evolving into 3x8. The top 12 Super League clubs keep their existing funding and operate on a salary cap of £1.6m. We play the home and away season and then go to the split with the bottom four in Super League joining the top four in the Championship in a middle eight. The Championship clubs have been operating on a much smaller salary cap of £300k?. Is the £500k going to be given to these top four Championship clubs between the end of the regular season and the play-offs beginning? If this money is expected to help bridge the cap and make them competitive against the lesser Super League teams, it doesn't give them much time to spend it. If that's not the case, it's likely the bottom four will be lucky to win a game between them.

If I have misunderstood the point on redistribution, I'd very much welcome an explanation.



#86 GeordieSaint

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 04:32 PM

There's something I'm not quite getting here. Assume we go to the RFL's lovechild of 2x12 evolving into 3x8. The top 12 Super League clubs keep their existing funding and operate on a salary cap of £1.6m. We play the home and away season and then go to the split with the bottom four in Super League joining the top four in the Championship in a middle eight. The Championship clubs have been operating on a much smaller salary cap of £300k?. Is the £500k going to be given to these top four Championship clubs between the end of the regular season and the play-offs beginning? If this money is expected to help bridge the cap and make them competitive against the lesser Super League teams, it doesn't give them much time to spend it. If that's not the case, it's likely the bottom four will be lucky to win a game between them.

If I have misunderstood the point on redistribution, I'd very much welcome an explanation.

 

Just stated on another thread, it is a ridiclous suggestion whatever way shape or form it comes in.


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#87 a.n Other

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 04:47 PM

There's something I'm not quite getting here. Assume we go to the RFL's lovechild of 2x12 evolving into 3x8. The top 12 Super League clubs keep their existing funding and operate on a salary cap of £1.6m. We play the home and away season and then go to the split with the bottom four in Super League joining the top four in the Championship in a middle eight. The Championship clubs have been operating on a much smaller salary cap of £300k?. Is the £500k going to be given to these top four Championship clubs between the end of the regular season and the play-offs beginning? If this money is expected to help bridge the cap and make them competitive against the lesser Super League teams, it doesn't give them much time to spend it. If that's not the case, it's likely the bottom four will be lucky to win a game between them.
If I have misunderstood the point on redistribution, I'd very much welcome an explanation.


I would imagine the salary cap will increase for the 2nd tier and the allocation of money will be based on the finishing places of the 2014 season. Teams will then be able to plan for the next season with their allocation of central money.

#88 GeordieSaint

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 04:54 PM

I would imagine the salary cap will increase for the 2nd tier and the allocation of money will be based on the finishing places of the 2014 season. Teams will then be able to plan for the next season with their allocation of central money.

 

What about the next season and the season after, and the season after that? Clubs will be cuffing it with no real indication of what income they will be receiving... that is not progress, that is lunacy! A straight equal payment to all clubs in the Championship is a much better option and much more sustainable. Fine if they are trying to make the season a bit more exciting but not at the expense of stability and development. The real issues of commercial value, participation and player development are not going to be rectified by these proposals. The current proposals are a monumental mess in the making.


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#89 thirteenthman

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 04:55 PM

I would imagine the salary cap will increase for the 2nd tier and the allocation of money will be based on the finishing places of the 2014 season. Teams will then be able to plan for the next season with their allocation of central money.

 

But if the allocation of money is based on placings at the end of 2014, what about the 2 teams relegated from SL? Do they get what they would've received in SL? Either way, the Championship in 2015 would have teams with very different levels of central funding. 



#90 thirteenthman

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 04:57 PM

 A straight equal payment to all clubs in the Championship is a much better option and much more sustainable.

 

And there's the problem - there's isn't enough income in the game to fund a second tier to the level that would get them close to being on par with the elite. An equal payment would reduce further what's payed out.



#91 a.n Other

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 04:59 PM

But if the allocation of money is based on placings at the end of 2014, what about the 2 teams relegated from SL? Do they get what they would've received in SL? Either way, the Championship in 2015 would have teams with very different levels of central funding.

I would imagine they would be classed as the top two tier two clubs and be awarded the money for them places. There is then the case of the proposed parachute payment. Teams will have different levels of funding so will spend the money differently. No difference to how the league operate now. All SL teams and Championship clubs get the same funding (Bradford apart) and they don't all spend the same on players or back office staff.

#92 GeordieSaint

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 05:07 PM

And there's the problem - there's isn't enough income in the game to fund a second tier to the level that would get them close to being on par with the elite. An equal payment would reduce further what's payed out.

 

There will never be parity and there never has been in the past in the professional or even arguably the semi-professional era. That is why sustaiability is so important. The RFL and clubs are trying to manufacture something that is simply impossible unless we tripled the TV contract; it isn't going to happen.  

 

If P&R is to be reinstated, people must realise there will never be equality between the two leagues. These proposals are going to balls up the Championship, a good quality and enjoyable league, as there will be a big gap between the top teams and the bottom sides, something the RFL tried to remove from the old structure pre-licensing. The RFL and clubs have not learned their lessons.


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#93 Cliff Spracklen

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 05:15 PM

If the decision is made to put Toulouse is a so-called SL2 (which is nothing of the sort), the game will have made a hugely strategic mistake. No French TV company will pay for the rights to see Toulouse play Leigh or Whitehaven in what effective will be the same league they have previously played in. It also won't entice players from overseas or even potentially RU to play for a lower division side. If Toulouse are to be admitted, they go straight into the top division and are exempt from any form of relegation along with their Catalan countrymen.

 

Agree totally unless the RFL manages to really "sell" the idea that SL2 really is Super League and not the part-time Championship, which as you say they previously took part in, being heavily persuaded to accept what was a "poisoned chalice". They also need to be in SL One as the prospect of a "French SL derby" is one of the drawing cards for strong French media involvement. So far the RFL's record on "selling" it's various competitions to business and the media is not exactly top drawer. 



#94 dkw

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 05:19 PM

which 'failed effort' ? they didn't fail at all in fact they did really well on a limited budget and a bunch of part-timers for the most part trying to hold down a full time job and still somehow be expected to train and travel to the uk every other week etc etc Toulouse in the CC1 wasn't a failure at all.


whichever league TO13 are put in exemption from relegation and the other criteria shown to Catalans at their conception must be shown to Toulouse

Read my post above.

#95 GeordieSaint

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 05:32 PM

Agree totally unless the RFL manages to really "sell" the idea that SL2 really is Super League and not the part-time Championship, which as you say they previously took part in, being heavily persuaded to accept what was a "poisoned chalice". They also need to be in SL One as the prospect of a "French SL derby" is one of the drawing cards for strong French media involvement. So far the RFL's record on "selling" it's various competitions to business and the media is not exactly top drawer. 

 

No matter what the RFL or clubs try to implement, the so-called SL2 will still be a second tier league and will still be largely part-time bar a few clubs as the funding split proposed highlights. People are deluding themselves thinking otherwise.

 

The real issue with the game is there isn't enough money in the pro/semi-pro ranks to sustain it. Commercial value is key to improve this. No matter how much fiddling around with the system you do, the current proposals are not going to increase the wider appeal of the game to the commercial sector. Obviously, Toulouse are not the answer to all of our problems but it certainly opens up potential for the game to increase its commercial value and consequentely its income streams. Tie that in with a potential P&R model (but with the French clubs indefinitely retained in the top league) and you have a better model/product to sell.

 

As you rightly state, Toulouse vs Catalans would be a great prospect to sell the game to potential French and UK investors; Toulouse vs Leigh (sorry to keep picking on them but it is the reality) was not in the past and will not be in the future.


Edited by GeordieSaint, 15 July 2013 - 05:38 PM.

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#96 The Parksider

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 05:33 PM

There will never be parity and there never has been in the past in the professional or even arguably the semi-professional era. If P&R is to be reinstated, people must realise there will never be equality between the two leagues. These proposals are going to balls up the Championship, a good quality and enjoyable league, as there will be a big gap between the top teams and the bottom sides, something the RFL tried to remove from the old structure pre-licensing. The RFL and clubs have not learned their lessons.


Your right after a fashion, but "funding" does not stop at income. Funding is accelerated heavily by rich backers.

I don't think the RFL believe they can get any parity. I do think there's a crisis and they want to open the whole thing up so if your a rich man you can come in and outspend your way to the top pretty quickly.

Note the new spending rules of 50% of income and as much money as your rich director wants to personally chuck in. Noises are coming out of Toulouse salford featherstone and halifax that they have riches to spend, noises are coming out of Bradford, cas, HKR, Widnes that they don't want to spend.

So to me it's a bit of a mess and the opening up of Superleague, the opportunity to outspend so called "bigger clubs", and the invitation to not bother spending if you don't want to is now planned and I do not see that the old order will continue to dominate. Two clubs will crash out of SL and at least three clubs who boast money have the chance to break in.

It's the stirring up of a pretty stagnant pool IMHO.

#97 GeordieSaint

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 05:40 PM

Your right after a fashion, but "funding" does not stop at income. Funding is accelerated heavily by rich backers.

 

It's a quick fix, which actually isn't anything of the sort. It is a scheme which will do nothing but paper over the cracks and not address the real issues in my opinion.


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#98 Derwent

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 05:47 PM

Toulouse spoke to the leading chairmen of the SLE about Superleague entry last year. The chairmen decided they would back Toulouse for Superleague. The RFL are apparently backing them as well....



That's a bit of selective memory there Parky, it's not quite true. They said they'd back Toulouse IF they brought a cast-iron French TV deal with them that was going to benefit everyone financially.

#99 The Daddy_merged

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 05:48 PM

What about the next season and the season after, and the season after that? Clubs will be cuffing it with no real indication of what income they will be receiving... that is not progress, that is lunacy! A straight equal payment to all clubs in the Championship is a much better option and much more sustainable. Fine if they are trying to make the season a bit more exciting but not at the expense of stability and development. The real issues of commercial value, participation and player development are not going to be rectified by these proposals. The current proposals are a monumental mess in the making.


It's also a waste of resources just throwing money at clubs yo yoing up and down, how many of the made redundant develpment officers could be supported on this money?

Kinda defeats the whole purpose saying we cant support 14 pro teams but then try and fund 24 with a 2 league concept.

#100 GeordieSaint

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 05:49 PM

That's a bit of selective memory there Parky, it's not quite true. They said they'd back Toulouse IF they brought a cast-iron French TV deal with them that was going to benefit everyone financially.

 

A quick question aimed at everyone really, do Catalans receive a share of the SKY money now or are they self-financed?


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