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George Zimmerman


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#21 Johnoco

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 06:59 PM

.

Edited by Johnoco, 14 July 2013 - 07:05 PM.

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#22 Exiled Townie

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 07:24 PM

Obama said 'if I had a son, he would look like Trayvan' (sp?)

What the flip was that all about? With such comments wasn't the pressure on to find him guilty?

Talking to an American friend, and apparently it was big news over there that one of the major tv networks in the states had broadcast a 'doctored' tape of the original '999' call to Zimmermans detriment whilst another claimed that a video taken at Zimmermans arrest showed no injuries whilst it clearly did.  There is also a fuss that the most widely used media photo of Martin was several years old and showed him as a young boy, rather than as a 17-year-old, 6' tall young man.  No matter which side you come down on, some of the media coverage about this case stinks.


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#23 walter sobchak

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 07:41 PM

Talking to an American friend, and apparently it was big news over there that one of the major tv networks in the states had broadcast a 'doctored' tape of the original '999' call to Zimmermans detriment whilst another claimed that a video taken at Zimmermans arrest showed no injuries whilst it clearly did.  There is also a fuss that the most widely used media photo of Martin was several years old and showed him as a young boy, rather than as a 17-year-old, 6' tall young man.  No matter which side you come down on, some of the media coverage about this case stinks.


Absolutely right, the media in the US sucks, somes "news" channels are mouthpieces for the democrats and some are mouth pieces for the republicans. also the way they turn these court cases into circuses is outrageous, with 24/7 over the top coverage, interviews with the lawyers, members of the families and friends etc.

#24 Northern Sol

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 08:01 PM

 

What I really don't understand is why he ignored the police warnings to stay in his car and let them deal with it.

He spoke to a telephone operator not a policeman.



#25 tim2

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 08:23 PM

He spoke to a telephone operator not a policeman.

 

True, and of course the 911 operators can only advise, not instruct, due to worries about liability. He still chose to ignore it, and the regular "standing orders" of neighbourhood watches, which is to avoid confrontation, which is the official police advice.

 

So many things conspired to create the moment Martin was shot, of which race is one of the least, but all of which should cause America to examine itself. However, they've already canned gun control and they won't stop the march of gated communities and armed private security.


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#26 Northern Sol

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 09:41 PM

Talking to an American friend, and apparently it was big news over there that one of the major tv networks in the states had broadcast a 'doctored' tape of the original '999' call to Zimmermans detriment whilst another claimed that a video taken at Zimmermans arrest showed no injuries whilst it clearly did.  There is also a fuss that the most widely used media photo of Martin was several years old and showed him as a young boy, rather than as a 17-year-old, 6' tall young man.  No matter which side you come down on, some of the media coverage about this case stinks.

Not to mention that there were claims that Martin was a perfect black child with no record.



#27 JohnM

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 09:50 PM

If you believe in trial by jury, then surely you have to accept the jury's verdict.  I wonder what the appeal process is in Florida



#28 ckn

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 11:08 PM

If you believe in trial by jury, then surely you have to accept the jury's verdict.  I wonder what the appeal process is in Florida

None if you're found not guilty.  The US has specific protection against double jeopardy in its Constitution somewhere.  The most that can happen is, like in the OJ Simpson case, that interested parties can sue for damages in a civil court where the burden of proof is reduced to balance of probabilities.


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#29 GeordieSaint

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 06:17 AM

Talking to an American friend, and apparently it was big news over there that one of the major tv networks in the states had broadcast a 'doctored' tape of the original '999' call to Zimmermans detriment whilst another claimed that a video taken at Zimmermans arrest showed no injuries whilst it clearly did.  There is also a fuss that the most widely used media photo of Martin was several years old and showed him as a young boy, rather than as a 17-year-old, 6' tall young man.  No matter which side you come down on, some of the media coverage about this case stinks.

 

It wasn't much better on BBC breakfast this morning either.


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#30 gingerjon

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 06:51 AM

If you believe in trial by jury, then surely you have to accept the jury's verdict.  I wonder what the appeal process is in Florida

 

The issue that seems to be a little bit too complicated for the media hysterics (both for and against Zimmerman) is whether or not the 'stand your ground' law is actually a good law and, perhaps more crucially, whether it should apply to Zimmerman who wasn't so much standing his ground as patrolling his beat with a gun. 

 

In the strict interpretation of reasonable doubt if the only other witness* is dead then 'stand your ground' is likely to put more than enough doubt in the jury's mind.

 

(* All of the other witnesses seem to have only had either a partial view or hearing of what happened).


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#31 tim2

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 08:22 AM

The issue that seems to be a little bit too complicated for the media hysterics (both for and against Zimmerman) is whether or not the 'stand your ground' law is actually a good law and, perhaps more crucially, whether it should apply to Zimmerman who wasn't so much standing his ground as patrolling his beat with a gun. 
 
In the strict interpretation of reasonable doubt if the only other witness* is dead then 'stand your ground' is likely to put more than enough doubt in the jury's mind.
 
(* All of the other witnesses seem to have only had either a partial view or hearing of what happened).


I read that the strict interpretation of the law appears to be that if, in the very moment that a person feels his life is in danger, he uses deadly force then the "stand your ground" law comes into effect. It doesn't appear to matter what lead up to that point.
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#32 Northern Sol

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 07:09 PM

I read that the strict interpretation of the law appears to be that if, in the very moment that a person feels his life is in danger, he uses deadly force then the "stand your ground" law comes into effect. It doesn't appear to matter what lead up to that point.

That's more or less true. The law is that non-lethal force may be countered only with other non-lethal force. So if somebody punches you, you can punch them back legally but you can't shoot them.

 

If the other person escalates it to lethal force, which means sufficient force to kill or permanently injure then you may respond with lethal force as long as the other guy continues to use lethal force. It doesn't really make any difference who started the non-lethal force though there is no evidence that Zimmerman threw the first punch anyway or indeed any evidence that Zimmerman punched Martin at all..

 

Martin was slamming Zimmerman's head against a paving stone at the time. That counts as lethal force. It's not about opinion but about potential risks. At which point Zimmerman was entitled to shoot him, which he did. At which point Martin backed off and stopped his violence, Zimmerman would not have been entitled to shoot him at that point and fortunately for him, he didn't.



#33 Northern Sol

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 07:14 PM

The issue that seems to be a little bit too complicated for the media hysterics (both for and against Zimmerman) is whether or not the 'stand your ground' law is actually a good law and, perhaps more crucially, whether it should apply to Zimmerman who wasn't so much standing his ground as patrolling his beat with a gun. 

 

In the strict interpretation of reasonable doubt if the only other witness* is dead then 'stand your ground' is likely to put more than enough doubt in the jury's mind.

 

(* All of the other witnesses seem to have only had either a partial view or hearing of what happened).

"Stand your ground" is just the name of the law, it isn't intended to be an accurate description of its entirety; its other aspects give it its name. Namely that you are not obliged to retreat to avoid violence, however, since he was pinned to the ground, there was never any question of him retreating.

 

There is no doubt that Zimmerman was covered by the law and the law was written precisely to avoid situations where one guy has to decide whether he should try to save his own life and take the risk of going to prison for defending himself or wait for his attacker to stop beating him and hope that he is not permanently disabled or killed.

 

The question of whether people should carry concealed guns is to me the heart of the issue not "stand your ground".



#34 Northern Sol

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 07:18 PM

In other news, black pressure groups are trying to force the federal government to try Zimmerman under hate crime legislation despite no evidence that there was any racial element to this. The fact that Trayvon referred to Zimmerman as a "creepy ass cracker" and Zimmerman having no record of racism don't seem to worry them at all. Any white or (whiteish) person defending themselves from attack by a black teenager must be racist.

 

Scary how "respectable" these groups are deemed to be given their actions.



#35 Johnoco

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 08:45 PM

Why is it being called a black on white crime? Zimmerman was not white. Unless they are saying 'you all look the same to me'?

No I don't care if you're if you're into different bands

No cause for so much hatred, I'm just a different man

Pull off that cover, I will too, and learn to understand

With music deep inside we'll make world unity our plan

 

7 Seconds -Walk Together, Rock Together


#36 walter sobchak

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 08:59 PM

Zimmerman was the aggressor, it was he that pursued matin, it was he who had the gun.

#37 Phil

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 09:06 PM

So if a black man had shot an unarmed white boy would we be having this discussion?

 

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#38 Johnoco

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 09:36 PM

Zimmerman was the aggressor, it was he that pursued matin, it was he who had the gun.

He thought he was up to something. That's why he followed him.

No I don't care if you're if you're into different bands

No cause for so much hatred, I'm just a different man

Pull off that cover, I will too, and learn to understand

With music deep inside we'll make world unity our plan

 

7 Seconds -Walk Together, Rock Together


#39 walter sobchak

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 12:28 PM

He thought he was up to something. That's why he followed him.


Against the advice of the police dispatcher, the problem is the crazy "stand your ground" law in Florida which people have dubbed "the make my day" law, giving licence to some people to take it upon themselves to become a clint Eastwood wannabe.

#40 Johnoco

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 01:23 PM

Against the advice of the police dispatcher, the problem is the crazy "stand your ground" law in Florida which people have dubbed "the make my day" law, giving licence to some people to take it upon themselves to become a clint Eastwood wannabe.

The despatcher wasn't at the scene and was only dishing out srandard advice, a bit like the police would do here if you rang up and said there was an intruder on your premises.

There was a Scottish guy (iirc) who was shot by a householder in the US a few years ago. He was drunk and called at a house asking for directions, the householder thought he was a robber and shot him. Its not right but it's the way it is there.

His (Martin) racist comments are also dismissed because it is apparently impossible for black people to be racist as that is caused by slavery and capitalism.

No I don't care if you're if you're into different bands

No cause for so much hatred, I'm just a different man

Pull off that cover, I will too, and learn to understand

With music deep inside we'll make world unity our plan

 

7 Seconds -Walk Together, Rock Together





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