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The advantages of DR to Championship clubs in revue


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#61 Griff

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 09:13 AM

Care to expand on that Griff ?


Posted tongue in cheek - but I'm sure we all recall the garbled transfer news from Swinnington earlier this season.

If a player is genuinely registered for Club A, I expect Club A to be paying his wages, not Club B. Similarly, I don't expect Club B to be announcing his transfer to Club C. Nor do I think that's too much to ask.
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#62 Griff

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 09:18 AM

I don't know, but Swinton & Hunslet seem to think it has been beneficial to them. They are surely best placed to judge. If they think it has been beneficial to them, then I'd suggest they know more about what those benefits have been, than people outside the club, who I suspect have no idea what the detail of the DR has been.
 
If Hunslet & Leeds both say the DR has been of benefit, then I'd be more inclined to think that it has been of benefit to Leeds & Hunslet, than not.


You put up a good argument. But the fact remains that the two clubs who have used DR the most are planted firmly at the foot of the table. Maybe if there'd been no DR and they'd signed their own players, those players might have had a better team ethic and the team might have won more games. Who knows ?

Bottom is bottom - whether adrift or a close run thing.
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#63 Gav Wilson

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 10:38 AM

I said that these arrangements were a one way street and that all the advantages were in favour of the SL team and that the minute the SL team needed to prop their first team up the lower tier team would be thrown to the wolves without a second thought and so it has proved to be.

 

It hasn't at York and Hull.


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#64 dkw

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 12:06 PM

It hasn't at York and Hull.


Or workington.

#65 dkw

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 12:09 PM

Really. Parksider has commented on Hunslet's current plight in a relegation spot being due, in part, to Leeds recalling players from Hunslet as the Rhinos injury list worsened.

I think it is highly possible of not probable that the same situation might arise between Town and Widnes.

Just because you get all melodramatic e.g. " Sigh" and start throwing words like ' pathetic" at me doesn't change the fact that the outcome I have suggested is a likely possibility.

Of course it may arise, though that does not make it highly possible just because it's happened at one club, if anything the fact it's only one pairing out of 10 (I think) proves exactly the opposite. And I find it quite ironic that you throw around the word melodramatic considering your histrionics and incredible pessimism in this thread.

Edited by dkw, 20 July 2013 - 12:45 PM.


#66 keighley

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 02:18 AM

It hasn't at York and Hull.

 

Maybe Hull havn't had an injury crisis yet ? If York made their playoff final and it was played as a double header with the Grand Final ( as it used to be ) and Hull were in the latter game and had five first teamers out  injured and York had the needed replacements on DR playing for them, I would bet a year's salary that these players would be recalled to FC and York would have to soldier on regardless.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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#67 keighley

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 02:20 AM

Or workington.

see post 66.



#68 keighley

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 02:53 AM

The championship beggars could not be choosers though. At least the SL clubs have saved a lot of money in terms of their player development system, important when SL is £8M a year in the red.

 

The skint championship clubs have also saved money not having to pay money to as many semi pros. The CC fans have seen some quality players at their games, both important as CC clubs are struggling for money and interest in their games.

 

the alternative to DR would have cost the game hundreds of thousands of pounds it can ill afford and reduced the quality of failing CC clubs further, so it may have been unpalletable to many but it's ben a good thing in the circumstances. Of course we want all clubs to be independant but the game is struggling and has needed this crutch. That's why they all agreed to it.

 

Your first paragraph hits the nail on the head. it's been a benefit to SL clubs.

 

The championship clubs on DR have not seen the increase in revenues promised from this SL largesse in terms of bums on seats and pounds in the till

 

The success of the independent clubs would seem to suggest that your last paragraph is without much foundation. Crusaders, for instance, top their league, draw well and have just today won a cup and the cash that goes with it. How is this construed to be "reducing the quality of championship clubs further"?. The fact that they all agreed to it suggest comparisons with headless chickens of lemmings. The proof of this is the probable relegation of Swinton and Hunslet, the slippage of Batley, the failure of Rochdale and the less then expected performances from the Skolars. really positive benefits from DR in that little lot.



#69 keighley

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 02:58 AM

Of course it may arise, though that does not make it highly possible just because it's happened at one club, if anything the fact it's only one pairing out of 10 (I think) proves exactly the opposite. And I find it quite ironic that you throw around the word melodramatic considering your histrionics and incredible pessimism in this thread.

 

Only one out of ten. Did you also see the post about the Rochdale DR and the recall of the St Helens players. Have you seen the league position of Swinton. Did you see that a bunch of poor non DR players from the Crusaders thrashed the Skolars/Broncos tandem today in a cup final no less.



#70 The Parksider

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 08:03 AM

Your first paragraph hits the nail on the head. it's been a benefit to SL clubs.The championship clubs on DR have not seen the increase in revenues promised from this SL largesse in terms of bums on seats and pounds in the till

 

The success of the independent clubs would seem to suggest that your last paragraph is without much foundation. Crusaders, for instance, top their league, draw well and have just today won a cup and the cash that goes with it. How is this construed to be "reducing the quality of championship clubs further"?. The fact that they all agreed to it suggest comparisons with headless chickens of lemmings. The proof of this is the probable relegation of Swinton and Hunslet, the slippage of Batley, the failure of Rochdale and the less then expected performances from the Skolars. really positive benefits from DR in that little lot.

 

How well CC clubs do is dependent on how much money they have. All DR does is reduce the financial burden on the playing bill.

 

However you don't know how much a club had in their playing budget to start with. Sheffield and Crusaders have twice the crowds Hunslet and Swinton have for a start. How much their directors also put in and how much revenue they get from local sponsors is again something we do not know. At Hunslet we have no "directors", just fans running it.

 

For all I know (the likes of Griff and Derwent will know) Crusaders and Sheffield pay full salary cap, whilst Hunslet and Swinton may well not be able to do this and only pay half the money. Having access to DR players gives them some chance as we saw when we had the Keinhorsts and Singletons playing for us.

 

I do know that without these DR lads we may now have been on the bottom of CC with no points. We may finish the season outside the relegation zone (putting aside the proposed changes) and if we did I'd say that picking up those early wins could well have saved us. Your argument is flawed because you assume if we hadn't gone for DR we'd have done better because Crusaders and Sheffield don't do DR and have done well.

 

But you forget they probably have the money to pay the better players. Most of the Crusaders lads have come down from Lancashire. If Swinton could have offered them more they would be there wouldn't they?

 

What's your view DKW?



#71 dkw

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 09:44 AM

Can't argue with any of that really, the only thing I will say is we may need to wait until next season before all clubs using it can get best from dr, learn from the mistakes and good practice from all clubs. This season being the first there was always going to be failures and successes. As for this crusaders argument, I don't know the relevance. We have beaten teams with more dr than us, we have beaten teams with less dr than us.

#72 Gav Wilson

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 04:58 PM

Maybe Hull havn't had an injury crisis yet ? If York made their playoff final and it was played as a double header with the Grand Final ( as it used to be ) and Hull were in the latter game and had five first teamers out  injured and York had the needed replacements on DR playing for them, I would bet a year's salary that these players would be recalled to FC and York would have to soldier on regardless.

 

If my Auntie had testicles, she would be my Uncle.


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#73 keighley

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 06:55 PM

If my Auntie had testicles, she would be my Uncle.

 

Oh very droll. I see York slipped to 3rd from bottom today getting right royally stuffed at home by Haven. What happened, did Hull recall all their DR players?. The only teams worse are Leeds A and Warrington A. Regardless of your aunties testicles, when it comes to a choice between the priorities of Hull and York, York will be the loser every time. DR is there to benefit the SL team, in this case Hull, and not the championship team.

 

York need to wean themselves away from this slavish adherence to the dictates of Hull and start building for what could be a bright future when the new stadium us built.

 

What is the state of play on that as a matter of interest?



#74 Keith T

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 08:36 PM

I understand that the SL clubs are going to re-instate their Under 23's next season so I think this season will be the end of the DR system as we now know it. I imagine that Championship clubs will be looking for players on loan next season.

I remember when .............................

"It is impossible not to feel a twinge of sympathy for Workington Town, the fall guys this season for the Super League's determination to retain it's European dimension, in the shape of Paris. While the French have had every assistance to survive, the importance of having a flagship in a heartland area like West Cumbria has been conveniently forgotten." - Dave Hadfield - Independent 25th August 1996.


#75 Les Tonks Sidestep

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 09:11 PM

Oh very droll. I see York slipped to 3rd from bottom today getting right royally stuffed at home by Haven. What happened, did Hull recall all their DR players?. The only teams worse are Leeds A and Warrington A. Regardless of your aunties testicles, when it comes to a choice between the priorities of Hull and York, York will be the loser every time. DR is there to benefit the SL team, in this case Hull, and not the championship team.

 

York need to wean themselves away from this slavish adherence to the dictates of Hull and start building for what could be a bright future when the new stadium us built.

 

What is the state of play on that as a matter of interest?

 

York finished 12th of 12 last season This year, they're 12th of 14. Some improvement thanks to DR.......

 

Also it's funny that arguably their best performance of the league season was with a team containing no DR players.



#76 Gav Wilson

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 09:56 PM

York finished 12th of 12 last season This year, they're 12th of 14. Some improvement thanks to DR.......

 

Also it's funny that arguably their best performance of the league season was with a team containing no DR players.

 

We've had good performances with DR players in the team, and we've had bad performances with DR players in the team.

 

We've had good performances with no DR players in the team, and we've had bad performances with no DR players in the team.

 

Other than Jamie Shaul and Danny Nicklas, every DR player has given 100% to York. Jack Briscoe, Liam Kent, Josh Bowden and Dean Hadley in particular, who have all effectively been on season-long loans whenever they aren't injured.

 

I've no problem with how York and Hull have used DR this year, but I am also happy to see the end of it, if it means everybody else stops ###### moaning about it all the time.


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#77 Gav Wilson

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 09:56 PM

I can't believe bl00dy is trapped by the swear filter. 


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#78 keighley

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 11:33 PM

How well CC clubs do is dependent on how much money they have. All DR does is reduce the financial burden on the playing bill.

 

However you don't know how much a club had in their playing budget to start with. Sheffield and Crusaders have twice the crowds Hunslet and Swinton have for a start. How much their directors also put in and how much revenue they get from local sponsors is again something we do not know. At Hunslet we have no "directors", just fans running it.

 

For all I know (the likes of Griff and Derwent will know) Crusaders and Sheffield pay full salary cap, whilst Hunslet and Swinton may well not be able to do this and only pay half the money. Having access to DR players gives them some chance as we saw when we had the Keinhorsts and Singletons playing for us.

 

I do know that without these DR lads we may now have been on the bottom of CC with no points. We may finish the season outside the relegation zone (putting aside the proposed changes) and if we did I'd say that picking up those early wins could well have saved us. Your argument is flawed because you assume if we hadn't gone for DR we'd have done better because Crusaders and Sheffield don't do DR and have done well.

 

But you forget they probably have the money to pay the better players. Most of the Crusaders lads have come down from Lancashire. If Swinton could have offered them more they would be there wouldn't they?

 

What's your view DKW?

 

I don't think the hope and expectation at Hunslet when they entered this arrangement was that they might just possibly, maybe avoid relegation. I remember Barry Eaton waxing lyrical about making the playoffs with a far superior team. This system has clearly failed Hunslet and others.

 

I don't follow your point about Sheffield and crusaders having more money to pay players and so produce a better. This is undoubtedly true but this was supposed to be counteracted by Hunslet and the likes having far superior players for free from the DR loanees. This system has clearly failed on that front as well.

 

I think the independents also benefitted from having a stable team squad not one constantly changing and with a team spirit and ethos and will to win greater than was to be found in the cobbled together, frequently changing, squads with mixed loyalties found at DR clubs.

 

Joe public has not gone for it, none of the benefits for the championship clubs have arisen. It is a failure and, if it is to be scrapped, then good riddance.

 

I just hope the will to live and any flicker of independent action has not been eradicated in the DR clubs and that they can come back stronger.



#79 keighley

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 11:47 PM

York finished 12th of 12 last season This year, they're 12th of 14. Some improvement thanks to DR.......

 

Also it's funny that arguably their best performance of the league season was with a team containing no DR players.

 

There seems to be no improvement but a better league position because there are two more teams in the league. The fact that their best performance came with no DR players in the team just goes to show the failure of the system for the Championship clubs.



#80 The Parksider

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 06:22 AM

I don't think the hope and expectation at Hunslet when they entered this arrangement was that they might just possibly, maybe avoid relegation. I remember Barry Eaton waxing lyrical about making the playoffs.

 

I don't follow your point about Sheffield and crusaders having more money to pay players and so produce a better. This is undoubtedly true but this was supposed to be counteracted by Hunslet and the likes having far superior players for free from the DR loanees.

 

Last season we were second bottom winning only two games. The arrangement was definitely to save the club from relegation, that was the lengthy conversations with Blackpool Hawk the boss. Look them up on here. All coaches talk their sides up every year since I started watching in 1966.

 

Sheffield's playing budget like that of Fax and Fev is way way above Hunslets. Possibly three times as much. They have the best players outside SL. The DR players simply helped to narrow the gap somewhat. Last year Sheffield put 118 past us, Featherstone 126 and Halifax 96. We have reduced those deficits this year.

 

All we wanted was to stay off the relegation spots. BH had done the figures for operating in CC1 and he could not make them work. I've nothing more to say on this now.






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