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#61 Methven Hornet

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 03:05 PM

Since 1284 there have been 23 x Princes of Wales,who were also Princes of Cornwall.

 

German names? .... check

French names?  ..... check

English names? ..... check

Greek names? ......  check

Current Prince meeting one or more of these criteria? ...     check

Heir Presumptive meeting one or more of these criteria? ... check

New baby meeting one or more of these criteria? ...             check

 

How many have had celtic names?

Sweet #### none.

 

Arthur is as Celtic as any name you're likely to find, and the current Prince of Wales is called Arthur.


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#62 Wolford6

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 03:27 PM

King Arthur may well have been a slav, left behind when the Romans left and organiser of Celtic resistance to the Saxons.

 

The name Arthur is easier to link to Roman and Slavic text than to Welsh.


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#63 gingerjon

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 03:28 PM

 

 

The name Arthur is easier to link to Roman and Slavic text than to Welsh.

 

Apart from the fact that the earliest reference is in Welsh referring to Welsh soldiers you're absolutely right.


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#64 Wolford6

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 03:37 PM

I've watched several documentaries on the Arthurian legend. The consensus seems to be that the name "Arthur" only emerged after the Roman occupation and that the cross-UK locations of his association would mitigate against him being a Welsh chieftain.


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#65 gingerjon

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 03:43 PM

I've watched several documentaries on the Arthurian legend. The consensus seems to be that the name "Arthur" only emerged after the Roman occupation and that the cross-UK locations of his association would mitigate against him being a Welsh chieftain.

 

I've read the original source material in old Welsh.

 

So, nur.


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#66 Wolford6

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 03:45 PM

You'd better get on to BBC Wales and Wikipedia then.


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#67 gingerjon

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 03:55 PM

You'd better get on to BBC Wales and Wikipedia then.

 

British derivation of either a Roman name or a linguistic play on 'like a bear' or similar.  Check.

Earliest literary references come from Welsh literature.  Check.

Likelihood of being a Brythonic leader or warrior dating from the late 5th or early 6th century.  Check.

 

Which bits do I need to change?


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#68 Wolford6

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 03:59 PM

I've read the original source material in old Welsh.

 

So, nur.

 

 

I took that to mean that you contend that the name Arthur was in Welsh text of pre-Roman provenance.


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#69 gingerjon

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 04:02 PM

I took that to mean that you contend that the name Arthur was in Welsh text of pre-Roman provenance.

 

Ah, My apologies.  "Old Welsh" in this instance (being all university-dullard about it) means 'in the Welsh language as it existed before Middle Welsh and Modern Welsh'.  That covers (from memory) anything written down from the 9th century to the 13th - and a lot of that written material is significantly older than the date at which it was written. 


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#70 Wolford6

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 04:05 PM

My god, we're not actually agreeing about something are we?

;)  :biggrin:


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#71 gingerjon

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 04:09 PM

My god, we're not actually agreeing about something are we?

;)  :biggrin:

 

I think the part we're disagreeing on is that your conclusion of that is that it doesn't make Arthur definitely Celtic - I think it does.  We also disagree about whether he was Welsh.

 

Welsh as a term isn't useful for the period of history in question but any 'British' native fighting back at that time - especially one whose name was adopted by Celtic people in what is now Scotland and Wales would almost certainly have been Brythonic.  And as there was no Wales at that time but the country now called Wales has a direct link with the Brythonic kingdoms of the Old North I'd say that for simplicity it is right to call Arthur, mystical or otherwise, Welsh in origin.

 

Now, please say something about Muslims.


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#72 Wolford6

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 04:14 PM

Smashing chaps.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The Welsh.


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#73 Methven Hornet

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 09:35 PM

Smashing chaps.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
The Welsh.


The Welsh Muslims?
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#74 Methven Hornet

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 09:45 PM

King Arthur may well have been a slav, left behind when the Romans left and organiser of Celtic resistance to the Saxons.
 
The name Arthur is easier to link to Roman and Slavic text than to Welsh.


Yes, but how far do you have to go back before something is genuine Welsh (or 'Celtic'), and which other cultural influences cannot be included? After all Celtic culture was introduced to these shores from elsewhere, wasn't it?

I mean, the new baby's name of Alexander is inclusive enough for me, representing, as it does, past Scottish monarchs. As with Constantine, another name of Scottish royalty, I can't claim it as being Scottish originally, but at least we have partial ownership!!! :)

And I'm sure George is one of ours too, somewhere along the line!
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#75 Wolford6

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Posted 27 July 2013 - 09:41 AM

How many times have you read and heard the phrase Arthur  ... King of the Britons? I have, dozens and dozens of times.

 

How many times have you read and heard the phrase Arthur  ... King of the Welsh? I never have.

 

I think if you asked a hundred Europeans where the name Arthur originated, they would say 'England.'


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#76 Wolford6

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Posted 27 July 2013 - 09:48 AM

By the way, I don't care what the Royal baby is called. I just pointed out that the roster of names of Princes of Wales reflect the fact  that the Royal family has historically never seen Wales as anything other than a minor territory under its control.

 

As far as I'm concerned, we didn't want them in the first place and I don't want them now.


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#77 Wolford6

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Posted 27 July 2013 - 10:10 AM

The Welsh Muslims?

 

 

The main, and very longstanding, settlement of Muslims has been in Cardiff. Historically, a lot were Arabs of Yemeni and and Egyptian ethnicity. As far as I am aware, they have always integrated well. I was once talking to a scholboy from Cardiff at a fee-paying muslim school in Dewsbury. His parents had wanted him to get a muslim education and, presumably thought Cardiff schools were too secular.

 

I'm fed up of saying this, but, here we go again: 

 

 1 - I have no beef whatsoever with individual Moslems

2  - My beef is with the way they, as a community, exploit the system and don't uphold traditional British standards of behaviour.

3  -  If I was a third world immigrant ... muslim or any other ethnicity ... I would jump at the opportunity to come here and make a better life for myself

4  - If I was a third world immigrant, I wouldn't immediately try to milk the system to send social service money back to my homeland, nor decline to learn English, nor ignore English laws, nor sell my children into marriage so that their partner could get British citizenship, nor marry my cousin (for money) and know that my children would stand a fairly high chance of congenital physical or mental handicap.

5 - In my opinion, the city where I live, and which I love, is being dragged down by the behaviour outlined in  point 4 by ethnic groups (we have also recieved an influx of Eastern Europeans). I don't intend to keep quiet about it.


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#78 Northern Sol

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Posted 27 July 2013 - 12:56 PM

Since 1284 there have been 23 x Princes of Wales,who were also Princes of Cornwall.

 

German names? .... check

French names?  ..... check

English names? ..... check

Greek names? ......  check

Current Prince meeting one or more of these criteria? ...     check

Heir Presumptive meeting one or more of these criteria? ... check

New baby meeting one or more of these criteria? ...             check

 

How many have had celtic names?

Sweet #### none.

Tbf I don't know that very many Cornish folk have Celtic name nor all that many in Wales either. For every "Aled", there are probably half a dozen "Davids".



#79 Severus

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Posted 27 July 2013 - 02:30 PM

How many times have you read and heard the phrase Arthur  ... King of the Britons? I have, dozens and dozens of times.
 
How many times have you read and heard the phrase Arthur  ... King of the Welsh? I never have.
 
I think if you asked a hundred Europeans where the name Arthur originated, they would say 'England.'


Does that really matter? Wales is just a bump on the side of England in any case.
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#80 Martyn Sadler

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Posted 27 July 2013 - 02:58 PM

Tbf I don't know that very many Cornish folk have Celtic name nor all that many in Wales either. For every "Aled", there are probably half a dozen "Davids".

Isn't David a Celtic name, normally rendered in Welsh as Dafydd?

 

I was in St David's last month on the tip of Pembrokeshire, and St David's Cathedral is well worth a visit.






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