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#41 archibald

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Posted 25 July 2013 - 09:23 AM

If a union gets pay rises and benefits for the workforce, then what right do non members have to claim those benefits?

Every right. Unless the benefits are paid directly by the union.

#42 Martyn Sadler

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Posted 25 July 2013 - 09:26 AM

If a union gets pay rises and benefits for the workforce, then what right do non members have to claim those benefits?

No right at all, but in many cases employers and unions are not keen to negotiate separate deals for those workers who don't want to be part of a union.

 

In my university lecturing days, it was impossible for anyone who didn't want to belong to a union to negotiate separate employment contracts.

 

The employer didn't want the hassle, and the unions didn't want to force the issue either, because it didn't want individuals to be able to negotiate better deals for themselves than the unions had negotiated. 



#43 Johnoco

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Posted 25 July 2013 - 09:57 AM

Every right. Unless the benefits are paid directly by the union.

Why do they?
Take factory A. It pays everyone minimum wage and on top of this is a dangerous place to work with H&S ignored. Fred goes round asking people if they want to join his union in order to improve pay and conditions. He asks 100 people, of which 90 agree and 10 tell him to get lost. The union members pay their subs and within a year pay has risen and it is a much safer place to work.

Why should those people who didn't want to join their colleagues in changing things reap the benefits? IMO they are *entitled* to none of these benefits but no doubt they will take them anyway. Like I have seen lots of people do over the years.

Ironically, the union in my industry (printing) is pretty much useless. Not a criticism of them but it's a bad market.

No I don't care if you're if you're into different bands

No cause for so much hatred, I'm just a different man

Pull off that cover, I will too, and learn to understand

With music deep inside we'll make world unity our plan

 

7 Seconds -Walk Together, Rock Together


#44 archibald

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Posted 25 July 2013 - 11:00 AM

 

Why do they?
Take factory A. It pays everyone minimum wage and on top of this is a dangerous place to work with H&S ignored. Fred goes round asking people if they want to join his union in order to improve pay and conditions. He asks 100 people, of which 90 agree and 10 tell him to get lost. The union members pay their subs and within a year pay has risen and it is a much safer place to work.

Why should those people who didn't want to join their colleagues in changing things reap the benefits? IMO they are *entitled* to none of these benefits but no doubt they will take them anyway. Like I have seen lots of people do over the years.

Ironically, the union in my industry (printing) is pretty much useless. Not a criticism of them but it's a bad market.


Because your terms are between you and your employer, no one else. People doing the same job can be paid different amounts. So those choosing not to work and inconveniencing the company get a bit extra, those choosing to work and don't really care either way get a bit extra for not inconveniencing the company.

#45 Johnoco

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Posted 25 July 2013 - 12:39 PM



Because your terms are between you and your employer, no one else. People doing the same job can be paid different amounts. So those choosing not to work and inconveniencing the company get a bit extra, those choosing to work and don't really care either way get a bit extra for not inconveniencing the company.

Eh?

No I don't care if you're if you're into different bands

No cause for so much hatred, I'm just a different man

Pull off that cover, I will too, and learn to understand

With music deep inside we'll make world unity our plan

 

7 Seconds -Walk Together, Rock Together


#46 archibald

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Posted 25 July 2013 - 12:56 PM

 

Eh?

 Basically, people can live their lives however they choose.

#47 Ackroman

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Posted 25 July 2013 - 12:56 PM

Why do they?
Take factory A. It pays everyone minimum wage and on top of this is a dangerous place to work with H&S ignored. Fred goes round asking people if they want to join his union in order to improve pay and conditions. He asks 100 people, of which 90 agree and 10 tell him to get lost. The union members pay their subs and within a year pay has risen and it is a much safer place to work.

Why should those people who didn't want to join their colleagues in changing things reap the benefits? IMO they are *entitled* to none of these benefits but no doubt they will take them anyway. Like I have seen lots of people do over the years.

Ironically, the union in my industry (printing) is pretty much useless. Not a criticism of them but it's a bad market.

 

Because these days a safe working environment is a right not a benefit. Unions may negotiate collectively but the Agency Worker Directive (for example) puts paid to significant discrepencies in pay and conditions. This requires companies to ensure a relatively equal set of terms regardless of age or gender (for eg). Thus only the drive, attitude and potential of the individual affects whether they get a few quid more in their pay packets.

 

IMO it comes down to the fact that we've been on a 50 year long path where individual rights have become the legal minimum standard rather than that of the collective "majority".



#48 Johnoco

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Posted 25 July 2013 - 01:50 PM

Because these days a safe working environment is a right not a benefit. Unions may negotiate collectively but the Agency Worker Directive (for example) puts paid to significant discrepencies in pay and conditions. This requires companies to ensure a relatively equal set of terms regardless of age or gender (for eg). Thus only the drive, attitude and potential of the individual affects whether they get a few quid more in their pay packets.

 

IMO it comes down to the fact that we've been on a 50 year long path where individual rights have become the legal minimum standard rather than that of the collective "majority".

Oh and they just decided one day to give people more money, less hours and a safer working environment did they?

 

Without the initial bargaining power of the unions, we would still be on the bare minimum. Employers are not charities, they exist to make money.


Edited by Johnoco, 25 July 2013 - 01:54 PM.

No I don't care if you're if you're into different bands

No cause for so much hatred, I'm just a different man

Pull off that cover, I will too, and learn to understand

With music deep inside we'll make world unity our plan

 

7 Seconds -Walk Together, Rock Together


#49 Johnoco

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Posted 25 July 2013 - 01:52 PM

 
 Basically, people can live their lives however they choose.

Of course they can. But if I am working in the sun building a shelter as you sit around sunbathing, don't be thinking you are entitled to use my shelter when it pees it down. Comrade.


No I don't care if you're if you're into different bands

No cause for so much hatred, I'm just a different man

Pull off that cover, I will too, and learn to understand

With music deep inside we'll make world unity our plan

 

7 Seconds -Walk Together, Rock Together


#50 archibald

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Posted 25 July 2013 - 01:54 PM

 

Of course they can. But if I am working in the sun building a shelter as you sit around sunbathing, don't be thinking you are entitled to use my shelter when it pees it down. Comrade.


If its a shelter built with your money on your land. I agree.

#51 Ackroman

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Posted 25 July 2013 - 02:01 PM

Oh and they just decided one day to give people more money, less hours and a safer working environment did they?

 

??????

 

I realise the unions were key to creating some of our most important employment legislation but they no longer hold the key to protecting or enhancing our working environments.



#52 Duff Duff

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Posted 25 July 2013 - 02:04 PM

The closed shop really is a question about freedom. People shouldn't be compelled to join a Trade Union and companies shouldn't be compelled employ members of a Trade Union. We live in a liberal democracy not a pale imitation of a communist state. 

 

Institutionalising the privileges of powerful trade unions caused all sorts of problems for both the workforce and employers. Once in a position of privilege some Unions started to serve the self interests of their leadership and paid employees rather than the interests of their members. Also the closed shop meant Unions could effectively veto who was and wasn't employed and led to all sorts of Spanish practices. 

 

In cases were the internal democracy of the Trade Unions broke down all sorts of abuses went on. Arthur Scargill's casual disregard for the  views and interests of his members being the most blatant example.  



#53 Johnoco

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Posted 25 July 2013 - 02:14 PM


If its a shelter built with your money on your land. I agree.

What has that got to do with it? You think you are entitled to sunbathe then enjoy the benefits of someone's labour?

No I don't care if you're if you're into different bands

No cause for so much hatred, I'm just a different man

Pull off that cover, I will too, and learn to understand

With music deep inside we'll make world unity our plan

 

7 Seconds -Walk Together, Rock Together


#54 Johnoco

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Posted 25 July 2013 - 02:15 PM

??????

I realise the unions were key to creating some of our most important employment legislation but they no longer hold the key to protecting or enhancing our working environments.

I agree with you here. My point was about making a difference in the first place.

No I don't care if you're if you're into different bands

No cause for so much hatred, I'm just a different man

Pull off that cover, I will too, and learn to understand

With music deep inside we'll make world unity our plan

 

7 Seconds -Walk Together, Rock Together


#55 archibald

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Posted 25 July 2013 - 02:16 PM

 

What has that got to do with it? You think you are entitled to sunbathe then enjoy the benefits of someone's labour?

If it isn't your shelter. Yes.

#56 Johnoco

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Posted 25 July 2013 - 02:20 PM

If it isn't your shelter. Yes.

But it is my shelter, I just built it. More to the point, you didn't but feel entitled to use it for some reason.

Edited by Johnoco, 25 July 2013 - 02:21 PM.

No I don't care if you're if you're into different bands

No cause for so much hatred, I'm just a different man

Pull off that cover, I will too, and learn to understand

With music deep inside we'll make world unity our plan

 

7 Seconds -Walk Together, Rock Together


#57 archibald

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Posted 25 July 2013 - 02:32 PM

 

But it is my shelter, I just built it. More to the point, you didn't but feel entitled to use it for some reason.

As I've said, if you built it with your money on your land, then you are perfectly entitled to keep it yourself. If, however, someone paid you to build it on their land, with their money, then say I can use it, budge up.

Edited by archibald, 25 July 2013 - 02:32 PM.


#58 Johnoco

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Posted 25 July 2013 - 02:35 PM

As I've said, if you built it with your money on your land, then you are perfectly entitled to keep it yourself. If, however, someone paid you to build it on their land, with their money, then say I can use it, budge up.

But they didn't. We are on a desert island. You choose to sunbathe, I build a shelter for when it's raining. There's nothing to stop you building your own so jog on.

The scenario you are talking about is one of a building contractor making a building for a customer, not something like I am on about

Edited by Johnoco, 25 July 2013 - 02:37 PM.

No I don't care if you're if you're into different bands

No cause for so much hatred, I'm just a different man

Pull off that cover, I will too, and learn to understand

With music deep inside we'll make world unity our plan

 

7 Seconds -Walk Together, Rock Together


#59 archibald

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Posted 25 July 2013 - 02:47 PM

 

But they didn't. We are on a desert island. You choose to sunbathe, I build a shelter for when it's raining. There's nothing to stop you building your own so jog on.

I've already said i agree with you.

#60 Phil

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Posted 25 July 2013 - 05:12 PM

If a union gets pay rises and benefits for the workforce, then what right do non members have to claim those benefits?

 

 

non whatsoever, let them try and  negotiate their own pay, terms and conditions and see how far they get as individuals.


"Freedom without socialism is privilege and injustice, socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality" - Mikhail Bakunin




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